Serpent in Eden: Foreign Meddling and Partisan Politics in James Madison's America (Guest: Tyson Reeder)

Download MP3
Tim Benson:

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Illiteracy podcast. I'm your host, Tim Benson, a senior policy analyst at the Heartland Institute, which is a national food market think tank. This is episode a 170 something of the podcast, so, not a very new podcast anymore. But for those of you just tuning in for the first time, basically, what we do here on the podcast is I invite an author on to discuss a book of theirs that's been newly published or recently published on, something, someone, some idea, some event, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, that we think you guys would like to hear a conversation about. And then, hopefully, at the end of the podcast, you give the book purchase yourself and give it a read.

Tim Benson:

So if you like this podcast, please consider giving Illiteracy a 5 star review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to this show and also by sharing with your friends as that's the, best way to support programming like this. And my guest today is doctor Tyson Reader. And doctor Reader is assistant professor of history at Brigham Young University where he, where his research focuses on early American transnational and international history. He is the author of Smugglers, Pirates, and Patriots, Free Trade in the Age of Revolution, and he's the editor of the Routledge History of Foreign Relations. Is it Rutledge or Rutledge?

Tim Benson:

Or I've always

Tyson Reeder:

No. I've pronounced Rutledge.

Tim Benson:

Rutledge, Rutledge. Yeah. I've never known how to pronounce that. Anyway, alright. So Rut the Rutledge History of US Foreign Relations.

Tim Benson:

And he is here today to discuss his latest book, Serpent in Eden, Foreign Meddling and Partisan Politics in James Madison's America, which was published last July by Oxford University Press. So, doctor Reeder, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I appreciate it.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. Thanks for having me, Tim. Happy to be here.

Tim Benson:

Oh, no problem. So, normal entry question to everybody that, comes on comes on the podcast, and that's, you know, what made you wanna write this book? What was the, what was the genesis of the project? Yeah.

Tyson Reeder:

I just finished my last book. My last book had just come out in, 2019, Smugglers, Pirates and Patriots. And, I hadn't planned on writing on this topic. I had another couple of ideas in mind, but at the time I was an editor for the papers of James Madison. That's when I was on faculty at the University of Virginia.

Tyson Reeder:

And as an editor for the papers of James Madison, my expertise was in James Madison's secretary of state series, for that, for that collection. And so I was neck deep in everything James Madison's secretary of state. And, I I came across a really interesting, I don't know. It was a really interesting document, that he sent to the Chargebee Affair, the diplomat, kind of a low level diplomat in, in Spain. And he was just raking the Spanish minister across the coals, the Spanish minister who is in Washington DC, because this Spanish minister I don't I don't think I need to get into all of the details here, but there was controversy between the United States and and Spain over control of Florida, and they had long been at each other's throats about control over the Mississippi River and lands in in the western United States.

Tyson Reeder:

I mean, what what was at the time the Western United States? And, and this minister, the went on sort of a a a diatribe in US Newspapers against the Jefferson administration, but worse, he was posing as an American citizen. So he's not he wasn't, actually revealing that he was a foreign agent or anything. And so so James Madison writes this excoriating document laying out the case for the Spanish government against this minister and basically saying telling American officials in Spain, you have to request the recall the recall of this Spanish minister. And he had a really Madison had a really interesting, line or paragraph in in that letter, and he said, you know, what would become of our democracy if we allow foreign agents to meddle in our elections, and meddle in our politics.

Tyson Reeder:

And, of course, this is 2019. This is the height of the first Trump impeachment with Ukraine and Russia. And, so so that stuck out to me and then and then little bits and pieces just kept coming back. It became impossible to understand Madison as secretary of state without understanding his fear of foreign meddling and especially foreign meddling in US politics. And so, you know, I just kept coming across these, and I thought to myself at one point, you know, somebody needs to write a book about this.

Tyson Reeder:

And then I thought for another second, I thought, well, well, I guess I'm the guy if somebody's gonna do it. So, so I didn't intend to, like I said, I didn't intend to just launch into something that seemed like it had so much relevance. It kind of came on me organically. But but also there was there was a lot of poor information out there, I thought. When when people were when we were going through the the first Trump impeachment, and people were commenting on it and historians were commenting on it, I I just thought there was a lot of poor information based on what I had seen, and I thought somebody needed to write a book and, set the record straight, so to speak.

Tim Benson:

Mhmm. Yeah. All the, the Logan Act nonsense that was going on back then.

Tyson Reeder:

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah.

Tyson Reeder:

The the Logan Act is in the book. It's mentioned it's mentioned and so forth. Yeah. So so just, all sorts of things. I got tired of hearing the word unprecedented, and and and I'm sitting here thinking every time they use that, I'm thinking, well, I can certainly think of a precedent.

Tim Benson:

Sure. Yeah. But, I mean, people's, you know, knowledge goes back about, you know, 6 minutes. So Right. Yeah.

Tim Benson:

It's unprecedented to a lot of reporters who are 25 years old. And yeah. Right. Yeah. So you mentioned Madison.

Tim Benson:

And you write earlier on in the book that, you know, no one played a more critical role than Madison in this, I guess you call it, like, the symbiosis between foreign meddling and partisan politics at the time.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. Yeah. James Madison, he he ended up being, a really terrific lens to view this problem through, because, I mean, Madison, of course, is there on the earliest scenes of the American revolution. He's he's not as involved as central to, you know, the American revolution as we might think of others like Jefferson Franklin and so forth. But but he's there, in Virginia, and and he's thinking through issues for the of the American revolution.

Tyson Reeder:

Then, of course, we move forward, and, he becomes a critical figure that, you know, you might argue the critical figure in the constitutional convention. He then becomes a member of congress, then secretary of state, finally president. So at each point, he's there looking at these issues, thinking about these issues in ways that other people aren't. So for instance, Thomas Jefferson, we don't get Jefferson at the constitutional convention. George Washington, of course, dies in 17/99, so we so we can't trace him, much much further well, any further than the 18th century.

Tyson Reeder:

And and so Madison's career just spans, this time frame. He's he's real he's the last of what we might think of as the the founders to to die. So, so with that expansive career, he was, he was really, essential to understanding James Madison was really to understand this symbiosis between foreign meddling and partisan politics. He he he not only was worried about foreign meddling, he was sincerely worried about foreign meddling, but he also became a political leader and and that and and he became very engaged in America's partisan politics. So he's also feeding the partisanship that perpetuates this destructive symbiosis.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. I mean, you mentioned him being a member of Congress, but he's not just like a member of Congress. He's essentially sort of the, in British political terms, sort of the leader of the opposition to the to the federalist. Right? I mean, he's he's a he's no backbencher.

Tim Benson:

He's a very important

Tyson Reeder:

Right. That's exactly

Tim Benson:

cog in it.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. Yeah. And and he's and and with Jefferson, he's doing a lot of the thinking, that that will give, substance to the ideas of the opposition. A lot of people think of Madison sort of as as Jefferson's lieutenant. You know, that that goes back obvious reasons.

Tyson Reeder:

He becomes the secretary of state and then and then he kind of becomes Jefferson's pick. So he sees he's always seen as a backbencher to Jefferson.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. And he's younger. I mean, they have that relation.

Tyson Reeder:

He's younger. Right. Yeah. But but really, when he, when he's in congress, Jefferson is turning to Madison to come up with the ideas. Jefferson knows, for instance, he doesn't like Hamilton, but when it comes time to open a newspaper war with Hamilton

Tim Benson:

You gotta

Tyson Reeder:

do it. Yeah. Jefferson turns to Madison and he has a great line where he said, you know, it's kind of a famous line if you're in the Jefferson Madison circle, the research circle. But, you know, he turns to Madison and he says, please take up your pen and, you know, something like strike this man down Hamilton before he can cause any more

Tim Benson:

damage. Yeah. I've always wondered about that. Whether why Jefferson felt Madison needed to do it and not himself, whether that was some sort of intellectual sort of inferiority he felt maybe towards I don't know. I mean, because you hear all these other like, these contemporaries talk about Hamilton and, like, almost to a man, they're just like, holy shit.

Tim Benson:

This dude is, this is incredibly I mean, they might not like the guy, but, they're all sort of in awe of his, of his intellectual, capacity and his, and his production.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. Jefferson just said nobody can do it the way that you can do it. And it turns out in this particular instance that we're talking about in the, early 17 nineties, Madison didn't do it particularly well, actually. In fact, he he kind of came up with a jumbled mess of ideas in trying to, he has a problem. Madison has a problem in the early 17 nineties, and that is he is the opposition against administration, and the administration means George Washington.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. From the time he's tiptoed around Joe you know, trying not to attack George Washington, but attack Hamilton's policies. Mhmm. He he he actually doesn't produce really great work at this period. And, so but but, alas.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. And the other difference seems to be that, Madison and Jefferson, etcetera, sort of begrudgingly, they had to do this kind of stuff and whereas Hamilton. So it seems like he sort of loved it. You know? Uh-huh.

Tim Benson:

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like, he just seemed like he was he always loved, you know, throwing punches and beam in the trenches and yeah. That's that's sort of, that's sort of combat or, you know, type of combat, I guess.

Tyson Reeder:

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I I don't remember exactly how I phrase it, but I say something in in there like, you know, Madison brought political philosophy to, a, a propaganda fight or something.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. Yeah. Right. K. Alright.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. So, I'm just moving on a little bit. So foreign agents at the time, sort of quickly came to this realization that, if they were gonna influence if they wanted to influence policy, if they were gonna have any influence on on American foreign policy, then, they had to influence politics, and and, because that was the way to sort of go at things. And by pitting Americans against each other, you know, Republicans and Federalists and North and South and East and West, all those sorts of things. They they really expose this, unresolved tension about where sovereignty resided in the American Republic.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. So so Madison, subscribes to the idea like other Americans that, you know, sovereignty resides in the people and and that was obviously a very common view at the time and it remains. The the people are sovereign, and and we are government of buying for the people and so forth. But when it real when push really came to shove, there was still a question. They were still very much in an 18th century political atmosphere.

Tyson Reeder:

And so when the government was selected, it wasn't at all clear where the people's sovereignty ended and the governments began. Now in our modern time, we, you know, we have modern theorists who like who can draw clear lines between saying, well, the people are sovereign, but the government exercises power, for example, but but they they hadn't they they weren't thinking in those nice tidy delineations. You know, where where does the government overstep its power? And and so, for example, if the people start to question the government's foreign policy, at what point does that descent become disloyalty? Right.

Tyson Reeder:

And and, and it depends on what side of the governing power you're on when the way that you answer that question. And Madison faces this problem. During 17 nineties when he is the opposition, he's very convinced, that the the biggest problem that's happening is that foreign powers are meddling with the government, maybe meddling with the government, and it's the people who will save it. And therefore, the people need an opposition voice. Well, flip forward to 1800 and Madison enters the executive branch as secretary of state and foreign powers, seem to start.

Tyson Reeder:

Now all of a sudden, he's kind of flipping the script, and he sees he thinks foreign powers are meddling with the people.

Tim Benson:

Right.

Tyson Reeder:

And, you know, you you've got you've got people like, Casa Rujo and others who seem to be writing newspapers, writing messages to the people, and we can't have that. And so Madison seems to to flip just like federalists are gonna flip the other way. Sure. And so, yeah. It it and I think that we we still have this problem today when we think about, foreign meddling that, that that that foreign governments are exploiting rights that Americans retain, rights of the press, rights of speech, and so forth, that Americans retain to do their meddling.

Tyson Reeder:

And so we we are and we were I

Tim Benson:

mean, yeah. I mean, we're right in the middle of this the whole TikTok.

Tyson Reeder:

With TikTok. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. Exact exactly right. So where how do you resolve this tension, between the fact that a democracy needs to to function and survive with freedom of the press and freedom of speech, and yet governments or foreign governments can come in and exploit those very things

Speaker 1:

to

Tyson Reeder:

try to crumble it from the outside.

Tim Benson:

Right. Exactly. Alright. Let's backtrack a little bit, I guess, and go back to the sort of the beginning of the independent American story. So the the struggle to maintain unity during the revolutionary war, the war for independence, and, you know, the threats to national unity at the time, not just not only from the British, but, you know, from the Spanish and the French and, Indians, I mean, from all sides and all places.

Tyson Reeder:

Right. Yeah. So Americans are and they have right to be very, very concerned, that they are a very weak confederacy. You can't even really describe them as a nation. They they are a confederacy, kind of a a a group and an assemblage of sovereign states in the midst of surrounded by powers that are far more powerful than than themselves.

Tyson Reeder:

And in the northeast, you have British and Indian alliances. In the southeast, you have Spanish and Indian alliances. And they're allied with France, but France is not all that interested in the survival of America so long as North America remains out of the hands of Britain. So, so they're they're, it's hard to even divide them between enemies and allies because their allies were only slightly less hostile to the United States than their enemies. And so Americans look at look at their situation and then they are very very concerned about the the power of their nation and so or that again hardly can hardly call them a nation they're worried about the power of their confederacy among all of these more powerful empires at their borders.

Tyson Reeder:

And so Madison with others begins to believe that the best way to deal with this is by turning that confederacy into a nation. But it's really this fear of foreign meddling and that foreign powers are going to come in and start splitting the United States apart bit by bit, and and very subtly. Madison has looked back at history, and he's he's seen this happen to other confederacies where it happens very, very subtly. No no foreign power comes in and tries to overtake one of these confederacies, but what they do is make an alliance here, and another foreign power makes an alliance there. And then all of a sudden, you get that for that confederacy start to break break apart among their different foreign alliances.

Tyson Reeder:

And then those foreign powers, it it becomes not an alliance, but those foreign powers actually usurp the sovereignty of of all of those different, those different pieces of of the Confederacy. And so, Madison has observed this in history, and he sees throughout 17 eighties after the you know, at the end of the revolutionary war and then after the revolutionary war into 17 eighties, he thinks he observed the same phenomenon happening in the United States, and that's largely what is on his mind when he goes to, the constitutional convention.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. Sort of speaking on some of those machinations. So the importance, of the Mississippi River and access to it for American farmers, American traders, especially, in the west and some of these territories that'll become Kentucky and, Tennessee and elsewhere. And, you know, the sort of the Spanish machinations, surrounding access to the Mississippi River, you know, post independence in this this decade of 17 eighties.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. It's it's hard for Americans now, I think, to understand the importance of the Mississippi River and the importance of the Appalachian Mountains in the early republic. So, what what do you have? You have the, you know, the 13 colonies and we think of them as being along the the seaboard east of the Appalachian mountains. But when they win independence, of course, their territory, they win territory extending out to the Mississippi River.

Tyson Reeder:

We don't think of mountains as much of a as a particular barrier to unity and communication today, but it they were at the time. And it it was hard for Americans to conceive of keeping their nation together, when when they had this major mountain range in in between the you know, splitting splitting this new country right in 2. And so what does that have to do with the Mississippi River? Well, you have people who are crossing the Appalachian Mountains. They already Americans on the in the east already worried that they're kind of becoming a distinct people.

Tyson Reeder:

They're separated. And then you have Spain that controls the Mississippi River, and they won't allow Americans access to the Mississippi River. So what does that mean? Well, 1, that means that Americans don't have as much of an incentive to go to go westward because if if they don't have access to the Mississippi, they don't have they they can't engage with the wider world. They can't send their goods out to the wider world.

Tyson Reeder:

And so and so, westward expansion will be closed up and Americans will start to overpopulate on the eastern seaboard. And Madison sees this as a terrible process that's going to, like, lead them in the same corrupt direction as Great Britain. You know, it becomes overpopulated. It becomes instead of an agricultural society, it becomes a manufacturing society and a society based on banks and commerce rather than on agriculture. And Madison sees that as really disastrous for the United States.

Tyson Reeder:

So it first, it will close-up westward expansion. 2nd, what is it going to do? For Americans that already live west of the Appalachian Mountains, it means that they'll give their loyalty to anybody who can promise them access to the Mississippi, And that might be Spain, or if Spain and Britain get in a tussle, it might it might end up being Britain. But it's clear that there are other empires out there that can that have a lot more to promise or Western Americans than the, the the eastern states can do. And so that becomes George Washington, speaking of these Westerners, says that, they stand as it were on a pivot.

Tyson Reeder:

The touch of a feather could turn them any way. Meaning, you know, with the touch of a feather, they might fall to Spanish allegiance, to British allegiance anywhere but the united but but this weak, group of 13 states.

Tim Benson:

Right. Yeah. I mean, it's not like, you know, it's sort of hard for Americans in the 21st century to sort of envision, you know, the America of the 18th century. And, you know, it's easy to understand how loyalty, you know I mean, yes. These people are technically Americans, but, you know, what the hell does that even mean?

Tim Benson:

America's been a country for about 6 minutes.

Tyson Reeder:

6 minutes.

Tim Benson:

If the choices are, alright. I've moved, you know, sort of into Transapalasia into the west and, you know, to try to better myself and my life and my family and whatnot. And if my choices are, I stay loyal to the United States and I can't trade, and I can't, you know, I can't engage in commerce, and, you know, I can't better myself. Or, you know, I become a subject of the the king of Spain, and that allows me access, you know, to this, to this water route that, you know, that I can, you know, eventually profit and, improve my life with, then it's not a very, you know, hard decision to make. You know what I mean?

Tim Benson:

There hasn't been America really hasn't been allowing around long enough to sort of imbue any sort of I mean, I guess, to a degree it has, but, I mean, really hasn't been around to, fortify people with some sort of nationalistic feeling. It

Tyson Reeder:

I mean, there's there there really is no there's in in some ways I I mean, they have a sense of unity because they've just fought a war together.

Tim Benson:

Right.

Tyson Reeder:

But in some ways, there's no America to be loyal to.

Tim Benson:

True.

Tyson Reeder:

There's no there's no country to be loyal to. You might be you might be a North Carolinian Right.

Speaker 1:

In North

Tyson Reeder:

but North Carolina has it extends from, it it it extends from the eastern seaboard over the Appalachians, and people who start moving over the Appalachians actually start to say, we wanna create a new state. I mean, you know, maybe it can be one of the one of the states that's in your confederacy, but if you don't let us create this new state and allow us to be in your confederacy, no problem. What if we just create a new state and join and and become a client state of Spain?

Speaker 1:

Right? Mhmm.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. Yeah. So so there's really no no nation to be loyal to at this point.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. And there are a couple kind of, like, rump, stateless that, like, pop up during some time, like,

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. The state of Cumberland, the Franklin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tyson Reeder:

I mean, even Kentucky before it becomes a state is somewhat of a, is one of these that's, looks like it might fall into the Spanish orbit.

Tim Benson:

Right. Okay. I guess let's talk about, some people and events and, what and I guess you can just explain to everybody, you know, what, the importance of these things or these people or or, you know, what, you know, what were the the outcomes of of things and people that were done at the time. So, I guess I'll start with the, the bull in the China shop that is, Citizen Genet.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Tim Benson:

He's, he's sort of he's probably like if anyone has heard of any, foreign I don't know if I call him a foreign agent, but a foreign representative in America during this time period, it's, it's probably citizen genie, sort of, become a, I don't know, punching bag, but, notorious figure in early American history.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. Yeah. So so who is is Genet, and and what is he doing here, and why do we care about him in this book? So so Genet is is in living during revolutionary France. He has some diplomatic, experience.

Tyson Reeder:

He's been a diplomat in in Russia, but but he starts to become more radical as the French revolution turns more radical. And so he's eventually selected as a as a diplomat to come to the United States, and he comes with a specific mission, which is essentially, as a reminder, the United States and France still have an alliance and stretching back to the revolutionary war. And as France enters its revolution, it gets into a war with with Britain.

Tim Benson:

With everybody.

Tyson Reeder:

And with everybody. With all of Europe. Yeah. And and and especially after 17/93, though, when Britain enters the war, that's when it, that that's when it it is, going to escalate. This war is going to escalate.

Tyson Reeder:

And so so Genet is supposed to come over to the United States. He doesn't he's not supposed to convince Americans to go to war with Britain, with France, even though that is part of the terms of their alliance. But but he's just he's supposed to ask Americans, we we at least need to be able to fit out privateers from your ports, basically ships that are going to go sail private, private mercenaries essentially who are going to sail against Britain. They need to be able to use your ports. And Washington instead is going to say, actually, we're declaring neutrality.

Tyson Reeder:

And, of course, French say, what do you mean you're declaring neutrality? I thought we had an alliance. You can't just declare neutrality when, there's an alliance. And and so, this is going to upset France. It's going to upset Genet, and it's going to upset a lot of Americans who would like America who would like their new nation to have a little bit more of a hand in the war on the side of the French.

Tyson Reeder:

And then, of course, it's going to divide them from those, like Alexander Hamilton and and budding Federalists who are perfectly willing to let America be neutral and would like to keep closer relations with Britain. So America's body politic, its electorate starts to split very early on, and it's largely over this question of whom do we support in this war, Britain or France. And Genet starts to, he he he starts to write in American newspapers. He starts to to go to the people to garner this support and to put pressure on the government to give greater support to France. And and this is really upsetting to to Washington and to Hamilton and those in the administration who are in greater favor of neutrality or sympathetic to to Britain.

Tyson Reeder:

And it looks like foreign meddling to them. But Janae is going to see it differently. And this is where we turning back to the issue that we started with this question of sovereignty, Janae says, you can't have it both ways. Are the people sovereign or not? Because if the people are sovereign, then I can deal with the people.

Tyson Reeder:

I can I can appeal directly to the people? I can write in their newspapers. I can gather crowds around me, and I can drum up the the the support of the people in my favor because they are sovereign. There's there's there's really no such thing as foreign meddling in a republic, in a democracy like this because the people are sovereign. So, you know, you, you overturn your government or at least your presidential administration every 4 years.

Tyson Reeder:

So, you know, the the fact that I'm rallying people against the government, it it's nothing that they don't already do, and it's not treasonous. It's it's simply a democracy working.

Tim Benson:

And He's very he's very saucy, man.

Tyson Reeder:

Right. Yeah.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. You get the sense that George Washington would like to, you know, strangle him with his bare hands.

Tyson Reeder:

Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Well and and and he start he gets to the point, speaking of saucy. So so Americans are sympathetic to France, but, again, Washington really is the, the central figure of American politics at the time.

Tyson Reeder:

It's really hard to overstate how how popular Washington remains among the American people. And so when it really looks like this becomes a fight between Janae and Washington, there was only going to be one one winner at the end of this. And so Americans start to turn against Janae as they see him trying to undermine Washington. But but it really is the first time, I think, in a major way in American politics that this question comes to the fore. Like, what what is the role of of or what is the difference between the people and the government when it comes to actually governing and establishing policy?

Tyson Reeder:

And and Janet, Janet raised a lot of those questions. So Janet in the end, he he France recalls Janet, but it's clear that Janet is is gonna face the guillotine for a lot of different a lot of internal politics reasons in France. He'll actually probably he may face the guillotine even when he goes back to France. So Washington, in sort of a magnanimous gesture allows Genet to remain in the United States rather than go back and possibly lose his head in France. But he is recalled, and, this is, this is one of the the really early major instances of overt foreign meddling in internal US politics.

Tim Benson:

Right. Okay. Alright. Now let's, move on, I guess, to the, the Jay Treaty, which I think most people at least get a passing mention of in their, history textbooks in high school, which was the Jay Treaty, which was essentially a treaty that is sort of trying to clean up some of the issues remaining, from the, Treaty of Paris, which ended the ended the revolution. And, so what was the, the response to the Jay Treaty, and also if you could talk about the sort of the machinations against Edmund Randolph?

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. So so this gets, really interesting. What what will have the the Jay Treaty, like you mentioned, it's they're they're they're still lingering issues from the revolution. British are still occupying forts. American creditors aren't paying their British debtors, and, the the British haven't returned, American slaves to their owners that which the treaty the peace treaty called for and so forth.

Tyson Reeder:

And so so there are still lingering issues, and and the British seem to be arming, Native Americans in the west, against American encroachments in into what Americans see as their rightful territory. So, so all of these issues are are supposed to be cleared up with the Jay Treaty. And but but what Jay is going to do, John Jay, when he negotiates the treaty, the treaty is gonna end up very lopsided in favor of Britain. And, you know, honestly, any treaty that Britain signs with any power at this time is going to be very lopsided in favor of Britain. That's just the nature of being one of the the world's superpowers in the time.

Tim Benson:

Big dog.

Tyson Reeder:

Right. Yeah. So, but but Americans, including James Madison, are going to see it very differently. They're going to see John Jay as selling out America, and that that Jay didn't fight as hard as he should have or could have, to for for, trade benefits that Americans wanted in the west in the British West Indies, for example, and and with Britain itself. And, so so there is strong backlash against the Jay Treaty, and the Jay Treaty, more than anything, up to this point, is going to solidify this 2 party system.

Tyson Reeder:

It's going to make federalists think more like think as federalists and Republicans or what we sometimes call Democratic Republicans. It'll make Republicans think as Republicans and really start to cement this this 2 party system. So what's going to happen? There's a lot of pushback, and Washington himself doesn't really like the Jay Treaty. He he admits that in private over and over.

Tyson Reeder:

Like, he he recognizes it's a lopsided treaty, doesn't love it. So he's not sure whether he wants to ratify it or not. He has a couple federalists in his cabinet who are really strongly in favor of ratifying it. They're more sympathetic to Britain. Edmund Randolph is still hanging out in his cabinet, the new secretary of state as the new secretary of state, and, he has Republican leanings, and he does not want Washington to ratify it.

Tyson Reeder:

So, these these 2 federalists, Oliver Wolcott and Timothy Pickering, actually start to coordinate with a a British official to to get correspondence. Again, we don't we don't need to get too far into the weeds here, but they get correspondence. They intercept the British government has intercepted correspondence from the French government, and and from the French minister in the United States. And that correspondence, if it's stripped of all its context and you translate the French into English in a in just the right way, it can almost make Edmund Randolph look treasonous. And so it it's going to put Edmund Randolph in a very poor light.

Tyson Reeder:

It's going to look like maybe he accepted a bribe, from the French government and, and and was perhaps, willing to, you know, was was trading privileged information with the French government. And history is pretty well vindicated, Randolph. It seems like none of that was happening, but but this this correspondence that the British government had, again, when it's divorced of all context, it it seems to paint Randolph in that light. So so, the British government, its meddling is going to come in this form. The British government is going to a British diplomat will bring that correspondence to the federalists in Washington's administration.

Tyson Reeder:

Those federalists then bring that to Washington and say, look what this dirty, rotten scoundrel, Randolph, is doing, and, Washington becomes very suspicious of Randolph. Rob Washington has faced treachery before, Benedict Arnold, for example. He he's not above now seeing his some of his lieutenants as maybe very suspicious. And so so he brings Randolph in and is is quite accusatory of Randolph. He's kind of giving Randolph a chance to vindicate himself, but but Randolph is essentially very, very offended that that he's been put into this position.

Tyson Reeder:

He resigns his place in the government, and the federalists get rid of the last, strong opposition against the, against the Jay Treaty, and Washington decides to to ratify the Jay Treaty. So so what what what do we have then? We have federalists who are using the British government as a source, to out to, to to make an outlier or to alienate one of one of Washington's trusted Republican advisers. And so the British government uses these political divisions to very great effect, and and in ways that that Janae didn't do. When when it's when Janae seemed like he was just overtly, openly, and, really egregiously meddling in in American's affairs, Americans said, yeah.

Tyson Reeder:

Okay. We don't love it. But so the British government, I think, is just, more subtle than that, and it it understands the internal politics better than that. And they said, well, we can still exploit these divisions among Americans. We're just going to do it much more clandestinely.

Tyson Reeder:

Right.

Tim Benson:

Alright. I guess let's move forward a little bit and, into the Adams years, 17 96 to 1800. And, we talked a little bit before at the beginning about the, the Logan Act. So if you could talk about this, this drama with the revolutionary war hero, the Polish revolutionary war hero, Tediz Kazayasko, and, the birth of of the of the much misunderstood Logan Act, which

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Benson:

Which which gets more ink, than any other, American law, I think, that has never been actually used before. Right.

Tyson Reeder:

Right. Exactly. Yeah. So, so so federalists, of course, are becoming more antagonistic toward France all the time, and France and Britain are both committing acts of aggression against US vessels. And in 17/96, the French minister is actually going to campaign openly pretty openly campaign in favor of Jefferson.

Tyson Reeder:

And in fact, it may have been one of the things that backfired for Jefferson in 17/96, but, he's openly so the minister, the French minister openly campaigning in favor of Jefferson and and essentially throwing out threats to Americans like, you know, elect this guy, or we're gonna be in a lot worse, have a lot worse relations than we do now. And, so Americans elect Adams, and problems continue to rise with France. Most most listeners will have likely have heard of the x y z affair even though if they even if it's a rudimentary understanding. France the the French minister essentially demands a bribe just to negotiate with Americans over these issues, and so Americans reject the bribe. And, and therefore, the option seems to be war, what we call low intensity naval warfare with France.

Tyson Reeder:

So so so Federalists, are I mean, Americans, but under a Federalist administration are waging war with France. And so they becomes very even more suspicious of of, of Republicans and of the French. And there's this old revolutionary war hero who comes along, Thadeus Kousiosko, and he seems to be a little too chummy with a lot of French expats who are living in Philadelphia, a little too chummy with, French sympathizers like, Thomas Jefferson and others. And so he starts to be seen as, perhaps some sort of spy. But but and indeed, what Jefferson is going to do is team up with Kousiosko, and Jefferson will send Kousiosko back to France.

Tyson Reeder:

He he actually Jefferson is secrete or excuse me, is vice president at this point, because the electoral college still is a little wacky, and it and it has a federalist president and a Republican vice president. But so so the vice president of the United States actually starts to fill out fake passports for Kousiosko, and starts to lie to foreign governments and say, I have a friend from Germany, and he's, like, gonna cross the Atlantic to Germany. Can you give him passports that essentially give him safe passage during wartime? And so and they do, and they don't really ask any questions. He travels across, I think, his alias that Jefferson creates for Kuziosko is is Thomas Canberg.

Tyson Reeder:

So, so Kuziosko crosses the Atlantic, but what Jefferson wants Kuziosko to do is go to France and start trying to trying to negotiate privately with with the French on behalf of the United States. And it's immediately it it immediately turns out that this is what Jefferson has done in the United States, and people start to get up in arms. And then, there's another agent. Jefferson may have less to do with with this agent, but George Logan is also going to cross the Atlantic at this time. And he's going to cooperate with Kuziosko and others in trying to have some sort of rapprochement, some sort of cooling of relations between France and the United States to see if they can establish peace.

Tyson Reeder:

But these are just private negotiations. These are not, you know, they're not carrying any sort of commission from the US government under the Adams administration. And so federalists at the time see this as very underhanded. They see this as kind of private meddling in US in US foreign affairs. And and so they passed the Logan Act, which outlaws private, essentially private negotiation, in behalf of the of the US government.

Tyson Reeder:

And so it still gets brought up from time to time. And, as I mentioned in the book, it's it's always been much more of a a convenient political cudgel than it has much of a a useful piece of legislation for, for for organizing American foreign relations.

Tim Benson:

Right. Alright. God. We've already gone 45 minutes. So let me let me move ahead a little bit.

Tim Benson:

Let's see. Oh, alright. So what was Aaron Burr actually trying to do in the west, and how big of a threat was his Yeah. Conspiracy,

Tyson Reeder:

whatever you wanna call it. I have to start with the boring answer, which is just to say we don't know. We we don't know. It which which is the most bizarre thing for how much it was investigated at the time, how much ink historians have spilled on it since, and we still have to just say, we don't know what this man was doing in the West. It seems pretty clear though that it was something corrupt, And I would say best guess is actually, my best guess is Aaron Burr was open to any and all possibilities that improved his political fortunes in the West.

Tyson Reeder:

And and so that meant telling different people at different times what he was up to, and just seeing what shook out. So, you know, to to the British government, he's saying that we're actually going to move against the Spanish government, and I'm going to lead a group of and we're going to separate the west from the United States, and we're actually going to subsume some problematic areas of the Spanish government. And that's what he's telling the the British minister. And then to the Spanish minister, he's saying, you know, you're having problems with the United States in the west, but we're going to try to create a new government in the west. And, so so he's just telling different things to different people.

Tyson Reeder:

And and I I really think that he just would have been open to to whatever one panned out in his favor. So so I don't know if It

Tim Benson:

was, sort of polyamorous, I guess.

Tyson Reeder:

But very yeah. That's exactly right. Yeah. That's that's my take after reading through this whole morass of of evidence and information. How how threatening was it?

Tyson Reeder:

It turns out probably not all that threatening. I mean, it it had the possibility to be very, very threatening. Either he was going to be waging an illegal war against against, Spain, who the United States had problems with was but was still technically at peace with, or he was going to be declaring independence in the West and and creating an alliance with Britain. You know, whatever it was, it was it had the potential to be problematic. The issue is he he just couldn't be very open about what he was doing.

Tyson Reeder:

Again, maybe he didn't even know what he was doing until he got more assurances from foreign governments. And so you can't that's no way to really start a revolution, when when you when you can't give, people who might follow you some sort of plain understanding of what they're doing and what they're fighting for. And so he Right. Right.

Speaker 1:

He

Tyson Reeder:

ends up he he ends up not getting a lot of support in the west. There there are a lot of people who support him morally, but in terms of just men and guns and ammunition and things you actually need to do something like this, he he just doesn't actually have that that big of a following. So so I think it tells us a lot more about the state of US politics at the time, which which if if I can just go down a little rabbit hole here.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. Sure.

Tyson Reeder:

That, what we get at the end of this by January of 1807, Thomas Jefferson, the president, and James Madison, his secretary of state end up interrogating 1 of 1 of Burr's, alleged conspirators in prison over Burr's over what Burr is doing. So I frame this to my students this way. You have the president of the United States and the secretary of state interrogating a prisoner of his a a co conspirator of the president's former vice president, in connection with a possible treasonous conspiracy in the west. So if you think that our politics are messed up today, we have nothing on the early republic.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. And that former vice president also shot and killed the treasury secretary.

Tyson Reeder:

President who who shot and killed the former secretary of treasury. Exactly right.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. Alright. Let's see. Oh, so the Louisiana Purchase, like, this is interesting to me. Talk about the the federalist reaction, to the news that, we had purchased all this Yeah.

Tim Benson:

All this land from, from the polyamic France.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. Federalists find themselves in the really unenviable position of their political opposition doing something really beneficial to the nation, and they don't know exactly how to they can't they can't excoriate the action, but they certainly don't wanna praise their political opposition. So, you know, they they see the French as a major threat, and Jefferson is responsible through negotiation for getting for keeping the French off of the American continent. So so how do you how do you argue with that? Well, this is how federalists come up, decide that they're going to argue the case.

Tyson Reeder:

This was they'll they'll say, this was never about keeping France off of the continent. This was never about make you know, making sure that, shoring up our national security against the powerful French or anything. What this really was about was about Jefferson purchasing a great wasteland. Sorry to anybody who lives in the the borders of the Louisiana Purchase, but, you know, this is about the president purchasing this vast wasteland just so he can give Napoleon money to fight his wars against Britain, and in return, maybe Napoleon's going to make him some sort of king king of America or something. So that that becomes the British reaction.

Tyson Reeder:

Excuse me. The the federalist reaction.

Tim Benson:

It's amazing, like, all throughout American history. It's like, how hard it is for, you know, an opposing an opposition party when the party in power does something, you know, pretty much that everyone would see, like, just like prima facie, like, is a good thing. That they're just like how like, they just can't even begrudgingly be like, yeah. This is, you know, this is good. They they always it always has to go you know, to, well, actually, you know, this is why this is bad.

Tim Benson:

This

Tyson Reeder:

this is

Tim Benson:

the thing that is uniquely good.

Tyson Reeder:

And and there were some federalists who kind of did begrudgingly say, well, okay. You know, fine. We don't you know, let's just at least keep our mouth shut. But then Right. You do have the more extreme wing who says, okay.

Tyson Reeder:

Actually, I have the perfect explanation for why this happened.

Tim Benson:

Right. Yeah. Alright. Well, running a little short here on time, so I guess we'll move forward. So the book basically goes like you said, stretches this period of the early republican.

Tim Benson:

It sort of, like, leads off right, at the beginning of the war of 18 12. And one question I had was, do you think the war of 18 12 would have happened, would have been possible without all this paranoia at the time about, foreign influence and, you know, how this, these ideological disagreements, you know, these these partisan posturing, all sort of became intertwined and, you know Yeah. Do do you think it would have been at all like, could the war of 18 12 been avoided entirely if the, temperature had been, you know, turned down a couple notches, you know, in this time period, the the sort of the partisan temperature?

Tyson Reeder:

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I I think that, it it could have actually been avoided. Now I can't point and I and I don't point to any specific instance and say, without this instance, the the war of 18/12 wouldn't have occurred.

Tyson Reeder:

But after an accumulation of of decades of of Republicans feeling like their opposition is in some some sort of corrupt communication, and then, honestly, sometimes they were. But in some in some sort of corrupt communication with the British government or that the British government didn't have these internal enemies that they could exploit to ruin the United States, I I don't think that you get to the to the point of paranoia that that you feel like you have to go to war, against Britain. And and and it wasn't just partisan politics, there was British meddling among, Native American nations in the in the west and in the, in the Ohio Valley. And that's that's very concerning, but that's also wrapped up in partisan politics. Republicans are convinced that that federalists are not only friends of Great Britain, but friends of Native American enemies in in the Northwest territories.

Tyson Reeder:

And so I just I don't think that you get to that point. As I usually try to describe it, most Americans were convinced that they could deal with internal divisions. They were also convinced that they could maybe deal with external threats. But when the 2 combined, that just created something so dangerous that Americans, felt like drastic measures needed to be taken.

Tim Benson:

Gotcha. Alright. So like I said, we're running up on an hour already. So, I guess I'll just end it on the normal, exit question for everybody, and that's, you know, what would you like what would you like the audience to get out of this book? Or, you know, what's the one thing you want a reader to take away from the book having read it?

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I I if in terms of anything didactic that we may be able to take from this in our, in our present day, I I would say, I would end with some of the thoughts from my conclusion, from the conclusion of the book, that Americans at one time before we came up with this really, virile image of uncle Sam, Americans actually personified their nation as as a woman. And

Tim Benson:

Colombia. Yeah.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. Colombia. Sometimes it was liberty, but but yeah. You it was it was a woman who is vulnerable, who needs protecting, delicate, and and the democracy is all of those things. But what I think Americans at the time failed to appreciate was was actually how how stable.

Tyson Reeder:

And it's easy for us to look back and and see how things turned out and say, actually, things were were more stable than you thought they were. But they they failed to appreciate it at the time and that actually a democracy can be very resilient to foreign meddling. Because, you know, in a in a monarchy, you you get the ear of 1 inside court minister, and you can turn the entire policy. In a democracy, you have to convince half a nation. So a democracy can actually be very resilient against foreign meddling.

Tyson Reeder:

And and yet by splitting into into 2 party systems, the, the United States made it and I think continues to make it much easier for foreign governments to meddle in US politics, because they're already kind of you already have already made 2 sides, and it's much easier to pit half the nation against the other, onto your side. And so so the 2 party system somewhat gives up the advantage, I think, that that we have when it comes to, to foreign meddling. And and I I think that we should be mindful of our delicate democracy, but not be so paranoid over our democracy that we see every that we see an enemy or a foe around every corner.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. If you don't mind, asking. Sorry. I said that would be the last question, but, I just I just thought of it. But so, do you have much concern about I mean, you know, like, with the the election in was it now 2016?

Tim Benson:

All this talk about, oh, you know, like, Putin, you know, meddling in the election and, you know, all this Russian interference and all this stuff. And, you know, some people on the, on the democratic side of things, you know, that made the claim that, like, you know, Putin sort of stole the election or influenced the election enough to throw it to Trump and all this other stuff. But do you think, like, all this do you think that's a little overblown? I mean, how many people really, like, saw some some dumb shit Russian bot farm post on, like, Twitter and or Facebook and was like, well, that changes my mind. You know?

Tim Benson:

And, like, change the vote.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. I I would say that that you'd you'd have to kind of split it into 2 different questions. Was it enough to sway the election? I I think the best studies and evidence have suggested that well, it's at least unknowable whether it actually swayed swayed the election or not. But is it problematic?

Tyson Reeder:

I think I think it's a 100% problematic to have foreign governments coming in and and trying to turn up the temperature and use partisan differences against the United States and create chaos and confusion in that way. So I I think it's a major problem, but but I think what what we can do is look back to this period in in US history and say, it's a problem, but it only becomes a bigger problem when we allow the cycle to continue, by by by equating our political opponents with our domestic or excuse by equating our domestic opponents with our foreign enemies.

Tim Benson:

Right. Yeah. I mean, in the country, you know, if it was survivable back then in the infant republic when, you know, the all these, you know, bonds of affection, I guess, Lincoln would say or something like that, hadn't been sort of hadn't taken root over the last 200 years, then, I think Right. You know, if they could survive it then, I'm, you know, I'm pretty sure we can survive all this stuff going on now as strong as the country is.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. I think one thing I think one thing historians would say is nothing is inevitable. So, so so so I think it's I think it's worth being mindful of these issues. Mhmm.

Tim Benson:

Oh, absolutely.

Tyson Reeder:

Yeah. Yeah. But, but we do ourselves no favors when we let our paranoia, just continue that perpetual cycle.

Tim Benson:

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. A 100%. No.

Tim Benson:

I'm just I'm just sort of of the, hey. Everybody relax school. Like, just, you know, like, turn it down a little bit. Like, as things not that you know, everything's not as bad as everybody seems like. You know, if you just, like, go outside and, like, talk to people, like, things aren't

Tyson Reeder:

you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Tim Benson:

Things aren't that, as amped up as

Tyson Reeder:

Or aren't as dire as we know.

Tim Benson:

Right. Right. Exactly. Alright. Well, once again, the name of the book is Serpent in Eden, Foreign Meddling and Partisan Politics in James Madison's America.

Tim Benson:

Really cool look at this time period and, and look at just how interesting look at how all these foreign agents, for lack of a better word, you know, try to sort of pull the strings here in America or, you know, pull in their favor and, the reaction to it, from all these, political leaders. And I know people sort of think of the founders sort of as a sort of a homogeneous group, you know, sort of, like, set aside with all sort of one, you know, state opinions. But these guys really, were sort of all over the map in their, in their beliefs and their, and political, political leanings and all that sort of things. And lot of lot of bad blood, you know, between, these guys and, all that sort of stuff. So it's really cool.

Tim Benson:

Look at the at an interesting part of our early republic, and I highly, highly, recommend it to everybody out there. Really cool book. Check it out. Once again, Serpent and Eden, Foreign Meddling and in Partisan Politics in James Madison's America is the title of the book. And my guest today, the author of the book, doctor Tyson Reeder.

Tim Benson:

And, doctor Reeder, thank you so so much for, coming on the podcast, and thank you for, you know, sort of brainstorming this idea and turning it into, this book and so that we could all, you know, enjoy the, the fruits of your labors.

Tyson Reeder:

Alright. Thank you, Tim.

Tim Benson:

Oh, no problem. And again, if you like this podcast, please consider leaving us a 5 star review and sharing with your friends. And if you have any, questions or comments or any suggestions for books you'd like to see discussed on the podcast, you can always reach out to me at, tbenson@heartland.org. That's, tbenson@heartland.org. And for more information about the Heartland Institute itself, you can just go to regular oldheartland.org.

Tim Benson:

And, oh, yeah. We do have our Twitter slash x account. You can, you know, give us a follow there if you want. You know, if you're even if you're a Russian bot or a Chinese bot, feel free. You can, what is our Twitter handle?

Tim Benson:

At illbooks@illbooks. So make sure you check that out. Give us a follow, all that kind of stuff. And, yeah, that's pretty much it. So thanks for listening, everybody.

Tim Benson:

We'll see you guys next time. Take care. Love you, Robbie. Love you, mom. Bye bye.

Speaker 1:

I work from 9 to 5. Hey, hell, I pay the price. All I want is to be left alone in my average home. But why do I always feel like I'm in the twilight zone in? I always feel like on TV see me when I'm always just paranoid.

Speaker 1:

When I'm in the shower, I'm afraid to wash my hair because I might open my eyes and find someone standing there. People say I'm crazy, just a little touch. Wouldn't they be showers remind me? I'll cycle too much. That's why.

Speaker 1:

I always feel like somebody's wanting me, and I have no privacy. Oh, I always feel

Creators and Guests

Tim Benson
Host
Tim Benson
Ill Literacy, the newest podcast from The Heartland Institute, is helmed by Tim Benson, Senior Policy Analyst for Heartland’s Government Relations team. Benson brings on authors of new book releases on topics including politics, culture, and history on the Ill Literacy podcast. Every episode offers listeners the author’s unique analysis of their own book release. Discussions often shift into debate between authors and Benson when ideological differences arise, creating unique commentary that can’t be found anywhere else.
Serpent in Eden: Foreign Meddling and Partisan Politics in James Madison's America  (Guest: Tyson Reeder)