Mirrors of Greatness: Churchill and the Leaders Who Shaped Him (Guest: David Reynolds)
Download MP3Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Illiteracy podcast. I'm your host, Tim Benson, a senior policy analyst at the Heartland Institute, a national free market think tank. This is episode a 170 something. We're somewhere in the 170 range, of the podcast. So, clearly, we've been around for a while.
Tim Benson:But for those of you just tuning in for the first time, basically, what we do on the podcast here is, I invite an author on to, discuss a book of theirs that's been newly published or recently published on someone or something, some event, some idea, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera that, we think you guys out there would like to hear a conversation about. And then hopefully, at the end of the podcast, you'll go ahead and give the book a purchase and give it a read. So if you like this podcast, please consider giving illiteracy a 5 star review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show and also by sharing with your friends, because that's the best way to support programming like this. And my guest today is doctor Brian Vandermark, and doctor Vandermark teaches history at the United States Naval Academy and is the author of many books, including Into the Quagmire, Lyndon Johnson and the Escalation of the Vietnam War, Pandora's Keepers, 9 Men and the Atomic Bomb, American Sheikhs, 2 Families, 4 Generations and the Story of America's Influence in the Middle East, and Road to Disaster, A New History of America's Descent Into Vietnam.
Tim Benson:He's also the coauthor of Robert McNamara's Vietnam memoir in retrospect, which many of you may have read, and which was turned into the Oscar winning documentary called The Fog of War, which many of you may have seen. And, he is here today to discuss his latest book, Kent State, an American Tragedy, which was published last August by w w Norton. So, yeah, doctor Vandermark, thank you so much so much for coming on the podcast. I appreciate it.
David Reynolds:Oh, I appreciate the invitation.
Tim Benson:Oh, no problem. So, normal entry question to everybody that comes on the podcast, and that's, you know, what made you wanna write this book? What was the what was the genesis of it?
David Reynolds:Well, I I'm old enough to have remembered the, the shooting, which occurred in May of 1970. I was almost 10 at the time. It made the front pages of the papers. I followed the news even if that age and was pretty shocked by that event. And with the passage of time, there were a lot of lingering questions that had never been answered definitively.
David Reynolds:And they remained, I think, pretty urgent and pressing in terms of understanding the tragedy was it was necessary to answer those questions. On the 50th anniversary in May of 2020, I was reading some newspaper commemorations of the of the shooting and reminded myself that these fundamental questions had not been answered. And I thought, why not try to answer them? And that's essentially what compelled me to undertake the project.
Tim Benson:Yeah. When, when I found out about your book, I, you know, I was thinking about it. I sort of realized, like, no. I really know nothing more than, like, surface level about, like, Kent State. I mean, I know the National Guard opened fire on some, you know, college protesters, you know, Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young, you know, 4 Dead in Ohio, and all that.
Tim Benson:Like, I knew Chrissy Hind was on campus at Kent State, like that sort of stuff. But I really, you know, the I mean, I and I also knew it was in response to Nixon's widening the Vietnam War into Cambodia. But other than that, like, you know, how it happened, why it happened, what the the events were, what, you know, actually happened, with the gunfire, that sort of thing, but none of it was, that I had any sort of more than surface level knowledge of. So I was really, interested to to read it and to see how or or as best as we can tell, you know, what transpired and, made the National Guard open fire on a bunch of college kids, and why and why the National Guard had a bunch of live ammunition when sort of policing a protest in the first place, that sort of thing. So I was really interested to delve into that and, you know, learn more about that.
Tim Benson:So that was great. But, so I guess before we get to the events itself, I probably be best if you could, like, sort of explain how do we get to May 4, 1970, or, you know, the if you could explain the sort of the context of the time and and sort of the or the the, as the kids would say nowadays, the vibe of of the time.
David Reynolds:Well, that's an important question, and I actually opened the book by setting that scene in terms of offering the reader, the context in which this shooting occurred. And, it's important to remember that by 1970, the Vietnam War and the American participation in the war had been underway for 5 years. American casualties had increased dramatically in the preceding 2 years of 1968 and 1969. That was the first and last uncensored war in which the reality of war was conveyed in vivid and horrific detail to Americans in their living rooms. And the draft, was a source of a lot of manpower in terms of those who were deployed to Vietnam.
David Reynolds:So that combination of things created growing controversy and division in the country over the war, And that intensified, I would say, especially after 1968 to the point that by 1970, the country was very deeply divided between those who supported the war and those who were passionately opposed to it. And remember too that the draft had exempted college students from exposure until 1969 when that, frankly, unfair exclusion was lifted, and that now made college students vulnerable to conscription as well. And that escalated, I think, the passion and intensity of protests against the war. I wouldn't overstate the analogy to today, but it's it's there, which is a divided country, in which both sides, view the other, as unpatriotic, ill intentioned. And I think it it tended to raise the level of passion and the danger of confrontation and the consequences of that kind of thing.
David Reynolds:And, that essentially is the backstory to the tragedy of May 4th.
Tim Benson:Mhmm. And there's, you know, the protest on Kent State is not something that, you know, was sort of unique to that university itself. I mean, there's all kinds of, all kinds of campus protests and disruptions that have been going on since 1967, 1968. You know, we talked about, Columbia earlier offline. And, was it Cornell?
Tim Benson:Was it the university where they essentially took over the university administration with with weapons, with guns Mhmm. And threatened to, you know, kill the university president, that sort of thing. So, Yeah. This is happening all across the country, and, and it's receiving a lot of or the the idea of protest and I think, you know, holding people at gunpoint in the in the administration building. It goes a little beyond protest.
Tim Benson:But, but there's sort of this, reactionary maybe not reactionary is the best word, but there's a lot of ill feeling and, pushback towards what's going on on these college campuses across the country from, you know, people outside of that system.
David Reynolds:Yeah. And and, again, I spent some time in the introductory chapter talking about the rise of the weatherman, which was an extreme, left wing offshoot of a student, protesting against the Vietnam War that eventually embraced violence as an instrument to achieve their goals. Their numbers were very small, but they got a lot of media attention. And I think what that tended to do was to produce in the minds of other Americans this notion that all protesters against the war are somehow or other more or less like the weathering, which was not true. But that image or that impression fed, resentment and animosity toward anti war protesters on the part of what I would call basically middle class blue collar Americans who deeply resented, what they perceived as something that was unpatriotic and culturally very threatening to what they cherished.
David Reynolds:So it's it's a it's a combustible atmosphere.
Tim Benson:Yeah. Especially since, you know, the membership of the of the weatherman, especially, is mostly made up of, you know, the children of privileged rich kids. Yes. And, you know, so we have all these people who are blue collar or, you know, low level white collar jobs and then maybe never got the opportunity to go to college or and just see these, these children of privilege, you know, essentially spitting on America. And Yes.
Tim Benson:Yes.
David Reynolds:And I think for just for example, if if you're a blue collar American, if you have a son back then, who didn't attend college because you didn't have the financial means to allow him to do so, he was exposed to the draft. And if he was drafted, I think that would just intensify the frustration and resentment that you felt toward college students protesting the war who until 1969 did enjoy an exemption essentially for economic reasons.
Tim Benson:Mhmm. Yeah. I always thought it was a little on the nose too for the, you know, for the rich kids and the weathermen that like, their idea of going underground is a townhouse in the village
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Tim Benson:You know, which they then proceeded to accidentally blow up. But anyway but, so let's get to Kent State itself. So what is the what is the school like in 1970? I I actually had no idea it was as large, of a university as it was even at the time. Mhmm.
Tim Benson:You know, obviously, Ohio State is the the behemoth and, in the Ohio University System, but, I I didn't realize that the the undergraduate population of Kent State was as big as it was in 1970.
David Reynolds:Mhmm. It was the 2nd largest university in the state after Ohio State. It had grown stupendously in the decades since the 2nd World War. It was an ordinary university in the sense that, the state legislature, which funded the university, essentially mandated, the admission of any Ohio high school student who had graduated to Kent State. The student body itself very often were the children of blue collar factory workers, who were the first members of their families to attend school.
David Reynolds:So I I would say there was nothing particularly unusual or exceptional about the school or its student body. They were very typical, but that in a sense drives home the the magnitude of the tragedy.
Tim Benson:Mhmm. Yeah. This wasn't, you know, Berkeley or
David Reynolds:Mhmm.
Tim Benson:Or something like that. Right?
David Reynolds:Right.
Tim Benson:So speaking of, the weathermen, who are a offshoot, or a, you know, violent offshoot of the the SDS, the Students For Democratic Society, Maybe you can tell us what, exactly is the SDS, and, do they have what was their reputation? And then, do they have any presence, at Kent State in May of 1970?
David Reynolds:SDS stood for students, for a democratic society that had been created, in the very early 19 sixties. And at the time, it was a very moderate, organization primarily of young Americans who articulated a progressive agenda. But for example, an illustration of their moderation, the Port Huron statement, which essentially was the founding document of of SDS, criticized totalitarian ethics, on the part of countries like the Soviet Union and China. So it wasn't what I would consider to be extremely left wing. But over time during the 19 sixties, particularly after the civil rights movement gained momentum and especially after the United States became deeply involved militarily in Vietnam, it had a radicalizing effect, on SDS.
David Reynolds:It moved it progressively further and further to the left. And by the late sixties, I would say the majority of the energy of that workstation was focused, protest against the war. And there was a very small, I I stress, small group within SDS, who took it even further and created the the weatherman, which, as I mentioned earlier, essentially embraced violence as a means by which they were going to change the status quo that they found to be, utterly criminal and unacceptable. There was an SDS chapter at Kent State. It was one of the largest SDS chapters of any college or university in the United States, but their numbers were, never more than a couple hundred, which was probably around 1% of the student body.
David Reynolds:And I think that that's something that should always be kept in mind, which is, yes, there are student protesters at Kent State and other universities in the United States against the war. Mhmm. The more left wing of them tended to concentrate themselves in organizations like SDS, but their numbers relative to the entire student body tended to be very small. And one of the points I make in the book is it wasn't SDS that radicalized the Kent State students, against the war. It was the war.
David Reynolds:The frustration of that war, the increasing human casualties of the war, both American and Southeast Asian, the destruction that it inflicted, which was vividly apparent to everyone. And now these students themselves are vulnerable, to conscription and service in that war.
Tim Benson:Yeah. No. I mean, I remember even so I was in college when the Iraq war happened, 2,000 3. And, and I remember there being of course, because there's always gonna be some person protesting something, somewhere on a college campus. Right?
Tim Benson:Mhmm. But I remember, like, they did, like, 1 March, like, went well, then again, I went to a you know, I went to the University of Florida, so it's a state school in the in the South. So, obviously, there's not gonna be as much, you know, it's not gonna it's not gonna be Oberlin or something like that. Right? But Right.
Tim Benson:But, yeah. But, you know, they got quite a few people, but, I mean, in a campus of, at the time, you know, 45, 50000 kids, it was, you know, a drop in the bucket. Mhmm. And, you know, they had their little fun. No one sort of took them seriously, and then, you know, off they went, and that was sort of it.
Tim Benson:And, but that didn't mean feeling about the war was that. So, I mean, if you hold the student body, it was probably, I would, at least, like, 5050, you know, for or against the invasion of Iraq, and, that obviously increased over time as, you know, it started to go not according to plan Right. That sort of thing. But, yeah, but for the most part, like I said, when people think, like, campus protests, they just, like, assume that, like, everybody on campus is is out doing something. And for the most part, it's it's, you know, it's a small subset of the student population, and most of the kids are, you know we had a lot of, like, Indian and, you know, like, Asian students at UF, and they're just like, I don't care.
Tim Benson:I need to go to class. Right? Like Yeah.
David Reynolds:You know,
Tim Benson:just just don't disrupt me going to class and,
David Reynolds:you know, just just Kent State, for example. Yeah. Support for the war was relatively high at the beginning of the American effort in 1965. And I would say, generally speaking, there was a correlation between rising American casualties and declining support for the war. Sure.
David Reynolds:And I think the big tipping point came in 1968, which was the year of the Tet Offensive. And, it American casualties skyrocketed. The 2 bloodiest years, the Vietnam war for the United States were 68/69. Mhmm. That that basically altered, student opinion on the war from being a majority of students supporting it to a majority of students opposing it.
Tim Benson:Mhmm. I I read something not too long ago. I'm pretty sure I read something. I never actually investigated, but I think it was in one of the books I did. Because but, anyway but I saw something that actually, like, from the polling data at the time, I don't remember what year it actually, like, tips into the negative, but the, the cohorts of the population that was the last cohort to move into the, you know, majority against the war was actually the the, young cohort, like the 18 to 29 or something like that.
Tim Benson:They were the older generations in the cohort were, moved into the negatives sooner than the 18 to 29 generations, which, you know, surprised me considering that they were the ones actually having to go to Vietnam and fight it. Mhmm.
David Reynolds:So Well, I mean, that's an interesting point. And when we reflect on that to a degree, I think the life experiences of older Americans probably sensitize them to the limitations and frustrations of the war. And there they have children in many cases who are either serving there or they're exposed to service there. I think another important thing to remember too is that, by the late sixties early seventies, right around the time of Kent State, perhaps a year thereafter, there was a very famous Gallup poll taken with the quote unquote representative sample of the American people and 70 some odd percent of Americans by 1971 judged the war in Vietnam to be a mistake Mhmm. Which is a huge shift Yeah.
David Reynolds:From what had been the case at the beginning of the American effort in 1965. So in a sense, what those students are saying at Kent State in 1970, is not only typical of the campus, but increasingly typical of vast majority of the American people.
Tim Benson:Right. Right. Absolutely. Alright. So I guess let's, move into the events itself.
Tim Benson:So Nixon announces his decision to send troops into Cambodia on is it April 30th, that that that Thursday?
David Reynolds:And Very late April. I think it's the last day or 2 of April.
Tim Benson:And then, like, immediately afterwards, just campuses across the country sort of Exploded. Explode. Right? And then on, May 1st, which is a Friday, there is essentially I don't know what a riot of some sort in downtown Kent, which is the town where Kent State University is located in Ohio. So could you go into that and how that how this whole how the whole ball starts rolling to the events of the shooting a
David Reynolds:few days later? The the immediate spark, to the events of, May 4th rooted in president Nixon's decision to send American military forces into Cambodia in very late April of 1970. Now the argument that he made at the time was, in essence, we need to do this because they are an area where sanctuary exists for the Viet Cong and the Vietnamese who were fighting Americans and South Vietnamese in the war. The problem was that he had run for president in 1968, on the promise to, end the war, that he had a quote unquote secret plan in the war. And the American people in vast majority of instances supported his candidacy because their assumption was he was going to get us out of that morass.
David Reynolds:When he decides to send American military forces into Cambodia, a lot of Americans react to that and say, well, wait a second. I voted for you because you promised to get get us out of this, and now what you're doing appears to be getting us even more deeply involved. And I think it's it's an illustration of the competing pressures on presidents quite often, which is the military was telling him, if you really want to get American soldiers out of Vietnam, one of the first things you're gonna need to do is to inhibit, the infiltration of troops and supplies into South Vietnam via Cambodia. They pressed him pretty hard on that. He accepted that.
David Reynolds:But there's a countervailing pressure there, which is there may be military exigencies driving that decision, but the broader, larger, deeper political consequences of that, were tend in the other direction, which is it's gonna enrage students already post the war, and it's gonna discomfort the American people who, by that point, really frankly won out. It's not a question of if we get out, but how and when.
Tim Benson:Yeah. Sorry to interrupt, but, had Nixon already started drawing down the numbers of American troops by May 1970?
David Reynolds:Yes. Had
Tim Benson:already okay.
David Reynolds:Yeah. The same year. There were still a large number of Americans there, but the process of disengagement in increments had begun the year before.
Tim Benson:Okay. Yeah. Just wanna know that. Alright. So, like I said, Nixon makes that announcement, and then this we have this, this event in downtown camp.
Tim Benson:How did this all start?
David Reynolds:Well, there was this, protestant campus in the commons area of the university that Friday midday. And that evening downtown, there was an outbreak of, discontent that involves students and it escalated due to a variety of different circumstances and became much bigger. And it resulted in, some vandalism downtown, and an effort to by the university police and the city police to get these students, back on campus, and it it it scared the community. And it also got the attention of the media, including, the governor's office. So by, let's say, the morning of May 2nd, which is a Saturday, people in Kent are very nervous about, what they view as escalating provocations on the part of the students and the establishment in terms of the city government, police forces, and the governor's office are becoming more and more concerned about what they view as something that is perhaps spinning out of control.
David Reynolds:And in their mind, is being fueled by or driven by these SDS radicals, quote unquote, who they view as capable of, inflicting extraordinary damage. Mhmm.
Tim Benson:What is the so what is, how is the university's relationship with the town or the students' relationship with the with the townspeople? What is this like in
David Reynolds:It's, it's very sensitive. The the student body had quadrupled from roughly 5,000 at the end of the second world war to more than 20,000 by early 1970. Their numbers are much greater. Their presence in town, their percentage and proportion of people in Kent, Ohio has increased. And there the cultural chasm between the students who are increasingly anti war and to some degree embracing a counterculture, longer hair, for example.
David Reynolds:The, these town residents are disconcerted by that. They're alienated by that. They're frightened by that and they're angry about that. So it creates this tension between town and gown, so to speak, which Right. Lies at the heart of a lot of this.
Tim Benson:Yeah. So okay. We have this, you know, unfortunate event downtown in Kent on the first, which is a Friday. Mhmm. And then the decision is made to essentially, ask for the National Guard to be deployed Correct.
Tim Benson:To calm things down. So who made the decision to call on the Guard? Why did they think it was needed, and what is the reaction to this from, officials at Kent State?
David Reynolds:Okay. There's still conflicting evidence in terms of who it was that actually made the request for the guard. The mayor at the time was the responsible party in the eyes of many people. The university was opposed to deploying the national guard to Kent and to the university campus. Their default setting in terms of calling in for additional help would have been turning to the Ohio State Highway Patrol.
David Reynolds:And I think the reason for that was the university administration understood the mood on the campus far better than, the governor's office did. And they are also cognizant of the fact that the Ohio State Highway Patrol had far more experience dealing with student protests on college and university campuses throughout Ohio. And I think that that was something that in hindsight would have been much wiser. But if you're the mayor of Kent and you're nervous and your constituents are infuriated by what they view as this growing mob of students who are, in their opinion, out of control. And the governor at the time, James Rhodes, was, because of term limits, he was on the way out as governor, but he was running for the Republican nomination to the US Senate in a election that was going to be held in just a few days.
David Reynolds:He had positioned himself as the law and order candidate. Right. So his reaction was, this is unacceptable. We're being challenged. I'm gonna call in heavy artillery, so to speak, by deploying the National Guard here and clean up this problem.
Tim Benson:Mhmm. So about these guardsmen, who were talk a little bit about the the types of, men that are gonna make up this this National Guard detachment that is sent to, you know, keep order at Kent State.
David Reynolds:Well, it's very difficult to generalize about the, those who started the Guard in Ohio in the spring of 1970. They were from a lot of different, occupations, and even educational levels, economic classes. A lot of them, I can't quantify the number, had joined the guard to avoid the draft. Some of them viewed student protesters as just essentially irresponsible troublemakers. A lot of others were in sympathy with the students.
David Reynolds:The key thing to remember is that the two elements of the Ohio National Guard that were sent to Kent on the night of Saturday, May 2nd, one was a regiment from, Worcester, and the other was an armored cavalry unit from Ravenna. They had very little of any training or experience in dealing with student protests. Their use in Ohio by the governor had been to deal with urban riots. The Ohio State Highway Patrol had the training in terms of dealing with students, and they had the experience in terms of dealing with student protests. And the consequences of that, in terms of what happened subsequently are very great.
Tim Benson:And they're not fresh either. They're coming off another Mhmm. Deployment or Yep. I don't know if deployment's the word, but, they had to sort of keep the peace elsewhere
David Reynolds:Mhmm.
Tim Benson:Over the previous few days. So they're coming into this situation sort of Exhausted. Exhausted and cranky and
Speaker 1:Yep.
Tim Benson:You know, that sort of thing. So alright. So then we get to the second, which is Saturday. Mhmm. And, things have escalated since since the night before with the events downtown.
Tim Benson:And now, Saturday, they're gonna see or Kent State's gonna see the eventually, the the firebombing of the of the campus ROTC building, which was a a popular, target on university campuses in those days for, for Vans. So, you know, arson, not good, not a good thing. And I'm I can't remember I'm sorry because, I finished the book now, you know, almost a month ago.
David Reynolds:Mhmm.
Tim Benson:The the burning the burning of the RSC building took place before the National Guard arrived on campus. Right?
David Reynolds:It it had been put to the torch, that evening. And later that night, as the flames were, rising in the sky or what's left of the RSC TC building on campus, that's when the National Guard arrives in Kent.
Tim Benson:Mhmm. And do we have any idea who, who the actual person or people were that, I mean, literally, you know, burnt that building down?
David Reynolds:The short answer is not really. The longer answer is there were people who knew, who was responsible for torching the building but were unwilling to share that with authorities. I think that as you pointed out, ROTC had become hugely controversial on American college and university campuses by 1970. A lot of students in a lot of places were deeply opposed to the presence of ROTC on campus. So the animosity toward the ROTC program, it can say, is nothing unusual in terms of students of that era.
David Reynolds:The fact that it's put to the torch is an indicator that the student frustration and anger over the ward, has reached a point where they're acting out in ways which are more and more aggressive. And I think that from the point of view of town residents and the governor's office, it's just more evidence of the fact that things are on the cusp of getting totally out of control, so we need to send in the guard to, deal with that.
Tim Benson:Oh, yeah. I mean, in their defense at the time, you know, it's not a good look, you know, having students I mean, because we don't know if there was you know, the people who actually torched it were, you know, sort of hardcore radical leftists or anything like that or just regular, you know, run of the mill college kids. I mean, definitely. But, anytime were Cass State students.
David Reynolds:I believe it was. They weren't outside agitators. Right. Who proceeded at the time. Right.
David Reynolds:Yes. You're right.
Tim Benson:But the fact that you have college students burning down college buildings is, I I mean, I can see especially after the night before when, you know, the sort of mini riot takes place downtown where all these buildings are you know, and businesses are vandalized, and you could see where, the local authority figures, the mayor, the chief of police, whoever, saying that this is out of control and something needs to needs to be done. Yep. And, you know, that sort of thing. So the National Guard arrives that night, and then that Sunday, 3rd, things seem to be calming down, for most of the day until, that mean that mean that mean that mean you're you're having fraternization between the the college students and the and the guardsmen Yep. And many of whom are, you know, about the same age as a lot of these students.
David Reynolds:Some of whom are students at Kent State.
Tim Benson:Yes. That's right. That's right. That's right. I forgot about that.
Tim Benson:So things seem to be good, and then all of a sudden, not good again on Sunday night.
David Reynolds:Yeah. Things, reignite on Sunday night, and there are there are a series of confrontations on campus. And there's a big confrontation on the edge of campus downtown, intersection of Lincoln and Main Streets. And I'm not gonna get into all the weeds with you on that, but essentially is another illustration of how tempers are rising. Anger and resentment of each side toward the other is growing.
David Reynolds:And it's it's an indication that by late Sunday night, May 3rd, there are a lot of people on campus and even the town who are afraid that something really ugly could happen the next day.
Tim Benson:Yeah. So, alright. So I guess another good question so just everybody knows this. So who is in essentially, who is in charge of this National Guard attachment that's that's there at Kent State during this period?
David Reynolds:Okay. The as a general of the Ohio National Guard, which was the number one officer, General Del Corso was there on Saturday night, but he left campus, late afternoon, early evening on Sunday. And his number 2, the assistant agent general named Robert Canterbury, was the senior officer in charge of the National Guard on Kent State campus, beginning on Sunday evening, May 3rd, and the following day.
Tim Benson:Mhmm. And, it's basically so we get to Monday. There's another campus protest. It's essentially his decision to break up the protest, I I believe. Correct.
Tim Benson:And, so, how do we get to that point? And then what are the, I guess, for lack of a better term, maybe it is the appropriate term, what are the rules of engagement for, these rank and file guardsmen as they're carrying out this order to, to break up the protest?
David Reynolds:Well, on Sunday afternoon, 3rd May, the governor, visited Kent, and he issued a statement at a press conference basically saying, any group of students whose numbers are 2 or more, will be banned and prohibited on campus, driving home this law and order message to voters in the impending election. And I think that probably conditioned Canterbury to view, any student assembly the following morning as unacceptable. He made the judgment to, disperse the crowd. He later claimed that it was the university president who essentially urged him to do that. There's conflicting evidence, but even some of the National Guard officers on the scene under Canterbury later testified under oath that it was Canterbury's decision to disperse the crowd in the commons.
David Reynolds:Again, I remind our listeners that, the guard at Kent State had very little, if any training in terms of dealing with student protests. And most egregiously, Canterbury, ordered live ammunition to be loaded into the rifles of these guardsmen even though he had a statutory responsibility to inform, the students assembled on the commons to, protest that that was the case, he failed to do so. Mhmm.
Tim Benson:Yeah. And these aren't, you know, these aren't little, like, 22 squirrel rifles or anything. These are, you know, m one Garands. These are, little kill at a 1000 yards. Right.
Tim Benson:Yeah. These are high powered, you know, high powered rifles firing, you know, high velocity rounds. So alright. So how did it take us through the events of how, we get to the point where, these guys feel that they that they need to open fire either out of malice or out of self protection, depending on the case? How do how do we get to that point where where these guys are shooting at or or
David Reynolds:or near, you know, college students? It's a gradual process, and it's a result for a multiplicity of factors, some in some respects a perfect storm. Cannery's decision to disperse the crowd was one that many of his subordinate officers disagreed with, because they felt that the students were yelling and calling the guardsmen names, but they weren't being violent in any way whatsoever. And they had a constitutional right to assembly and free speech. Cannery made a decision to disperse the crowd nonetheless.
David Reynolds:He ordered, not only live ammunition and the rifles, but he ordered them to don their gas masks. The problem with the gas mask is once it's put on, your field of vision is inhibited. It tends to fog up, and the ability to communicate between officers and those under their command now wearing the gas mask is diminished. There were a lot of guardsmen who wore glasses, who had to take them off and pocket them when they put on their gas masks. It's just looking back on this now, it's just stupendously unwise.
David Reynolds:The circumstances are fraught with potential danger and tragedy. They issued an order to disperse, which was ignored by the students, and Canterbury then ordered the guardsmen out to dis disperse them forcibly. And eventually, what will happen is they will cross the commons. The students will split up going around the building at the eastern end of the commons known as Taylor Hall. Canterbury will split his forces.
David Reynolds:He and a majority of the guardsmen move to the right, which is the south side of Taylor Hall, up Blanket Hill, past what was known as the pagoda, down into a practice playing field. And there were many students, who had assembled, the parking lot of Ernest Hall, which was adjacent to this practice field. And they were throwing rocks, and other projectiles at the guardsmen, taunting them, essentially viewing this whole thing as an exercise, not only free speech, but it's a carnival in terms of just driving home their animosity, frustration toward the guard and what they view as a symbol of American militaries in which they detest. They are unaware of the fact that the guardsmen's rifles are loaded with live bullets. And eventually, the guardsmen will begin to, retreat back up Campus Hill, back toward where they had started.
David Reynolds:And as they're moving up Blanket Hill and and retreat, the students who are in the parking lot and, on Blanket Hill near Taylor Hall, not far from them, start following them up the hill. There are not very many students who get particularly close to guardsmen, but, they are picking up the pace in terms of their approach toward the guardsmen. Some of them begin to walk very briskly. Some begin to run. And as the guardsmen, near the pagoda at the top of the hill, the students are moving in large numbers from behind them, and getting closer.
David Reynolds:And remember, they're wearing gas masks, so they can't really judge depth or distance very well. And they're hearing things being shouted at them, including kill, kill, kill, let's get them, etcetera. It's it creates an immensely volatile situation. And it's at this point that one guardsman, a sergeant who had fallen a little bit behind the mainline rescinding blanket hill, he had given his gas mask to a private in his company. So not wearing a gas mask and being back from that mainline, sending the hill a bit, he could see what was happening, that the students was nearing the guardsmen and that the pace by which they were approaching them was intensifying.
David Reynolds:And he saw that there were a small group of guardsmen at the top of the hill who turned around, and pointed their rifles downhill toward the approaching students in a fashion that had been similar to what they'd done in the practice field. They'd been ordered by Canterbury to point their rifles at the students as a means or a gesture to deter students from getting any closer, and they repeated that step at the top of the hill. But, this sergeant, his name was Matthew McManus, saw what was happening and was fearful that something really ugly was about to happen, so he made a decision to he was carrying a shotgun. He pointed his shotgun up in the air and he screamed at the top of his lungs amidst a tremendous amount of noise and confusion. Fire over their heads, fire warning shots.
David Reynolds:So he discharged his shotgun in the air in an effort to prevent bloodshed to, get these guardsmen who were pointing their rifles downhill to fire over the heads of the students. The tragedy was that amidst all of this noise and confusion, 1 guardsman or guardsman plural, either heard only the first word fire, but not the rest of it in the air or heard that first word and just instinctively reacted because of their training. And that set off, the tragedy that ensued.
Tim Benson:And how many shots do we know were were fired?
David Reynolds:67 were were fired. In in do
Tim Benson:we know how what period of About 12
David Reynolds:and a half seconds.
Tim Benson:6 to 7 seconds and 12 and a half seconds. Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, the whole thing is just a complete I mean, we'll get to the students who were shot in a second. I mean, it's just it's just bad decision, you know, snowballing.
Tim Benson:It's just one bad decision, bad decision, bad decision after another from from both sides. I mean, I mean, you know, you really shouldn't be throwing rocks at at guardsmen and screaming at them that you're gonna, you know, fucking kill them and all that sort of thing. Not a good decision. I mean, they weren't told that those that those guns had live ammunition. But I was always told if you see a gun out anywhere, just assume that there's live ammunition in the gun.
Tim Benson:You don't you don't take that for granted, that sort of thing. You know, what really pisses I sorta have a lot of contempt for the the students who were the primary drivers in egging this on because they got innocent people. I mean, really, they they got innocent people killed by by escalating this situation the way that they did. You know, protesting is one thing, you know, and that's fine. Everyone's like you said, you have constitutional right to protest, and senator will do.
Tim Benson:But, you know, the minute you get violent, the minute, you know, you start physically assaulting people, which is what, you know, throwing bricks and rocks and whatever at them, you are that not saying that they deserve to get shot, but, like, things like that cause situations like this to get out of hand. Mhmm. And you can't expect good things to happen from from that decision to escalate it because, you know, what are the chances that the National Guard is gonna open fire on all these students if they're not getting, you know, physically assaulted and, put in a position where they think that, you know, they're actually fearful enough that they're that they have to shoot at these kids to to save themselves because they're outnumbered, you know, 10 or something.
David Reynolds:That point of view is one that is shared by many people then and now. I would also point out, that Canterbury's decision to disperse the crowd was Yes.
Tim Benson:That would mean also terrible.
David Reynolds:Justice department to be unconstitutional. Sure. And there were senior officers beneath Canterbury who themselves felt that the students were not being violent, and therefore there was no good reason to break up the crowd. Right. That having been said, Canterbury's decision to issue them live ammunition and not inform the students of that fact was egregiously poor judgment.
Tim Benson:Yes.
David Reynolds:Dependiously poor judgment. And, as you pointed out too, throwing things at the the guardsmen is not proper. It shouldn't have been done. There's an element of risk in that, which in hindsight, was pretty foolish. But as you also pointed out, throwing a rock doesn't deserve being shot by a high velocity rifle.
Tim Benson:No. No. Absolutely not. But, I mean, I I like, put it this way. So you remember the whole Kyle Rittenhouse situation, the the kid from Wisconsin who you know, there was the the riot going on or whatever, and he grabbed the, the gun that he had that was at his father's house and went in just to, like, keep the peace in, like, in his mind.
Tim Benson:And then, of course, the the rioters start ganging up on him and, you know, assaulting him essentially. And to the point that, you know, he turns around and fires at the at the, rioters and ends up killing, I think, 2 of them, or at least killing 1 of them and and injuring a couple more. Now I don't think I mean, because he's clearly in the pure of his life, they're clear from all the evidence that we've seen, you know, I don't think he that he was guilty of murder or anything like that. But but he put himself in a really, really stupid situation like that. Like, those murder I mean, what what happened to Kyle Rittenhouse that night would not have happened to Kyle Rittenhouse if Kyle Rittenhouse would have just stayed home and not put himself in a situation that is already tense, already explosive, where, you know, people are on edge.
Tim Benson:And so who is really at fault for what happened to Kyle Rittenhouse and who and those 2 people, obviously, the people that assaulted Kyle Rittenhouse are, you know, responsible with their own actions. But then again, if Kyle Rittenhouse isn't there to assault in the first place, none of this ever happens. If that's sort of how I feel about, like, the the Kent State thing. If these I mean, like I said, everybody, you know, go out and protest all you want and, you know, all the picking signs and, you know, you can have speeches and slogans and sing songs and whatever you wanna do. But you gotta realize that I mean, even if you're at a situation like that, if you're not even I mean, if you're just there and then people in that, in that crowd, in that or or part of the protest start doing some, you know, wily shit, like throwing stuff at at at national guardsmen who were, you know, shouldering m one grands.
Tim Benson:You know, it's time to time to time to leave. Right? It's not time to but that's the problem with mobs. People get caught up in it, and they don't think. And, you know, the the sort of mob mentality takes over.
Tim Benson:I'm just saying that the thing that pisses me off about it is that, you know, these, these 2 kids who were the 2 girls, Sandy Shewer and Alison Krauss, were far, far away from from the guardsmen. I don't know how many, hundreds of yards or how many feet. But it's like Sandy Shewer was just, you know, walking to class.
David Reynolds:Mhmm.
Tim Benson:You know? And took a bullet in the neck,
David Reynolds:and
Tim Benson:or in the throat, I should say, and, and died. You know? And she might have been tangentially. I I can't remember if she was actually, you know, you know, part of the protest or some part of it. But, I mean, at the point at this point, she's just walk she just wants to go to class, and she's walking to class with a friend Right.
Tim Benson:And gets a bullet in the neck and and dies, because some, you know, because some idiot National Guard commander, you know, put these guys in that situation and because some idiot college kid thought it was a good idea to start throwing rocks at national guardsmen. And it's just you know?
David Reynolds:No. I I I think that in hindsight, some of the points you made are are pretty compelling. It's dangerous to provoke, guardsmen carrying rifles. But as you also point out, crowd psychology can be very unpredictable and very powerful. And, again, I underline the point that I would say the overwhelming majority of students there, felt that they had a right to be there and to be dispersed was, violating their constitutional rights.
David Reynolds:And almost none of them, were cognizant of the fact or even assumed that those rifles were loaded with live bullets. And, again, hindsight's always 2020. I think a lot of responsibility and, frankly, culpability lies with Canterbury, for instance, to issue the live ammunition without informing the students, to telling the guardsmen to don the gas mask without contemplating the implications of that in terms of their ability to perceive what's happening. It's a perfect storm of a lot of different factors that will result in an absolute certainty.
Tim Benson:Basically, anybody in a position to screw up that day screwed up. Like like, no one made a good decision that day, pretty much. It was just a a cascading, you know, just a cascading sequence of just bad decision after bad decision after bad decision Yep. Until the point where we get to the, you know, where these shots have been fired. God.
Tim Benson:We've already gone 50 minutes. I'm sorry about that. So let's actually, tell us about these the students who were who were killed, who were shot because there's I mean, it's the 4, the famously, you know, the 4 dead. Mhmm. But there are, what, 11 other or 9 other students.
Tim Benson:And other students that are that are wounded.
David Reynolds:1 paralyzed for once.
Tim Benson:1 paralyzed. 1 yeah. So, so some of them for these woundings are are grievous woundings. Just tell us a little bit about these, students. Sort of let people know who these who these kids were.
David Reynolds:Okay. Again, it's an assortment of students with differing, levels of opposition and passion against the war. Jeffrey Miller, who was, the 4 killed, the one closest to the guardsmen, he was still some distance away, had thrown rocks at them, and shouted pretty aggressively, in the miniscule of this.
Tim Benson:He used the body in the famous photograph, the, Philo or Philo? Yes. The Pulitzer winning photograph, the one with the, the girl.
David Reynolds:Mary Beckett.
Tim Benson:Mary Beckett, Mary Ann Beckett, you know, sort of that that famous image of you know, if people have one image of Penn State, that's the the one that they have in their head.
David Reynolds:Mhmm. And Alison Krauss, Bill Schroeder, and Sandy Schroeder were the 3 killed who were in the parking lot at a further distance downhill from the pagoda within the cone of fire. Alison had been opposed to the war. Her opposition and passion against the war had intensified. She was, infuriated by the presence of the National Guard on campus, and her boyfriend, Barry Levine, had thrown rocks at them.
David Reynolds:Bill Schroeder was in the ROTC program at Kent State. He was a pretty high performer in that program. He had joined the ROTC because he needed money to pay his way through school. He had grown disillusioned with the war, and his opposition to the war intensified. I think there was a lot of internal conflict on his part about being an RTC versus opposing the war.
David Reynolds:I think he was there for a reason a lot of the students were there, which was, just to be part of a, quote, unquote, happening. He wasn't displaying any aggressiveness toward the guardsmen or throwing things or shouting at them, but, he was there for the protests. And then what's that proverbial expression? He was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sandy Scheuer was, as you pointed out, her politics were also anti war, but she was not, the protesting type.
David Reynolds:She was very compassionate, warm, you know, woman who built a lot of feeling toward other people. I think she wanted to see what was happening. And she pointed out by that point, it appeared to a lot of people down in the parking lot that the thing was over because the guardsmen were about to crest the hill and go down the other side. She was turned to walk away for her next afternoon class. She too was in the wrong place at the wrong
Tim Benson:time. Yeah. And, so if you don't mind spending another I know we've gone close to an hour already, but if you don't mind spending another few minutes just sort of wrapping this up.
David Reynolds:Sure.
Tim Benson:So what what happens in the immediate aftermath of the shooting? You know, the sorry. Just, you know, what investigations took place after this? What you know, what did they find? Okay.
David Reynolds:Well, as you pointed out, in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, the guardsmen reassembled in front of the burnout ROTC building, And a lot of the students who had seen what had occurred, the carnage, are infuriated. And they gather on the commons not far from the guardsmen. And the fear is, oh my god. This is gonna happen again. Mhmm.
David Reynolds:Because Canterbury was determined to get them off the commons. And another bigger tragedy was averted essentially, by Kent State faculty imploring the students to, not get confrontational again in the the arrival of the Ohio State Highway Patrol, who basically imposed, sensibility, restraint, good judgment, and a cool head, in a situation in which Canterbury had failed in all of those departments. Eventually, there are going to be multiple investigations of the shooting, and there will be, criminal and civil litigation, related to the shooting. There are a certain number of guards who are indicted on, criminal charges. They are eventually acquitted, in court.
David Reynolds:That's followed subsequently by civil litigation filed by the families of some of the victims. And there's a civil trial in which the guardsmen are also acquitted by a jury. Eventually, a settlement will be reached almost 10 years after the fact in which the guardsmen who were exposed to the litigation will sign a statement of regret, what has occurred, and the families of the victims will receive some degree of compensation from the state of Ohio for their losses and injuries, and further legal action would essentially ended.
Tim Benson:Mhmm. And did Canterbury ever face any sort of, repercussions from his failed leadership on May 4, 1970?
David Reynolds:No. He was not court martialed. In my judgment, he should have been. He was eventually recommended for some kind of commendation. The recommendation went from the Ohio National Guard headquarters in Columbus to Washington DC, where it was denied quite justly in my opinion.
David Reynolds:Again, looking back, the human impulse is to find someone to blame, to find a villain, find a scapegoat. I think that, again, all of these individuals, whatever their limitations and flaws, were trying to do what they thought was the right thing to do given their limitations and the pressures of the moment. That having been said, the judgment of the governor to deploy the National Guard to Kent State, and to sort of whip up public opinion against the students and therefore fear of the students, was reckless and irresponsible in my opinion. And Canterbury's judgment was absolutely abysmal. And he violated statutory responsibility to inform the students that those rifles were, loaded with white ammunition, which is just frankly inexcusable.
Tim Benson:Yeah. Yeah. The one thing that actually kinda really the toughest part of the book to read for me was and it was sort of shocking, but not shocking based on the way people act on the Internet nowadays, is, you know, the families of these 4, slain students, the letters of abuse and sort of hate mail that people mail to parents grieving the loss of their child. I mean, it's just maybe you can talk about that a little bit. Just the sort of the the sort of just repulsive lack of of humanity in, you know
David Reynolds:No. I agree, Tim. And, many readers have reached out to me, with a very similar reaction. And it is true that when you look at the level of viciousness expressed toward grieving parents, at a time of great vulnerability, it's just unfathomably, incomprehensible to me that, people can be that hateful, and hurtful, toward the parents of Slane students. It just, I don't have a good explanation for it.
David Reynolds:Yeah. I mean, like people who did that were not great, but some of those gutters that would have been preserved are, just bone chilling.
Tim Benson:Yeah. I mean, like, today, you can figure out I mean, you you think you know how that sort of stuff happens because, you know, you're on people are on there on their phone or in front of their computer, and all they have to do is just hit a couple buttons and push send, and then that's all they have to do. But, like, to take the time back then to actually sit down, write a letter
David Reynolds:Mail it.
Tim Benson:Put it in an envelope, address it, put a stamp on it, mail it, go down to the mailbox and stick it in the mailbox. I mean, it's, you know, it's 6 more levels of effort. Mhmm. And just the, I I just I don't I can't imagine, and and it's may just makes me think real ill of, the human race in in some degree.
David Reynolds:But Well, we have we have to put this in some broader context, which to me is helpful and hopeful, which is the number of people who, exhibited that level of depravity were were fairly small in number. And I think of the larger point I wanna make to you and the listening audience is that, to me, it's the, ultimate expression of political extremism carried to the nth degree. Mhmm. I don't see anyone with a conscience of heart or any feeling of, sensitivity and compassion for other human beings could even conceive of doing something like that. But you also have to remember, look at the, extremism of the weatherman.
David Reynolds:Carried to the nth degree. I mean, the weathermen who died in the townhouse explosion in Greenwich Village in March of 1970 were building a bomb that they were going to detonate, at a social event, for For dicks. Yeah. Right. For dicks.
David Reynolds:And the insanity of that, the inhumanity of that is just incomprehensible to me. But I guess the takeaway for me is I want people to contemplate that because it's an illustration of what can happen when the country becomes so deeply polarized and divided that it will drive people away from not only the center, but out to fringe areas, which to me just, is evil.
Tim Benson:Yeah. Well said. Alright. So just wrapping up real quickly. What effect did the shooting have on the university in the short term and the long term?
Tim Benson:And then how, how were anniversaries of the of the event conducted, remembrances, that sort of thing?
David Reynolds:Well, as most people can imagine, it would its effect in terms of the image and PR status of the university was catastrophic. I think enrollment dropped by a quarter or a third. There was even an effort made on the part of the administration in the years that followed to try to distance the university from what had happened by rebranding and renaming the university from Kent State to Kent University so that people wouldn't automatically think about what had happened on May 4th when the name of the university came up. It took decades for, the university administration to come to terms with accepting that a tragedy had happened, that that university will forever be associated with it, but then essentially acknowledging it and trying to learn from it. But I think that's been true as well, for the political establishment of Ohio.
David Reynolds:The current governor, Mike DeWine, in 2020 on the 50th anniversary of the shooting. He's a Republican. He ordered all state, Flagstaffs flown at half mast in commemoration of the tragedy. I mean, that's traveling a long road from the reaction of a majority of Ohioans in 1970 who basically defended what the guard had done. And the legacy of this for those who were killed and wounded, and the only surviving family members, the 4 dead with the 9 wounded is very powerful because it drives home, the lasting human consequences of confrontation that culminates in that kind of violence.
David Reynolds:I spoke at Kent State in the fall, and, one of those in the audience was Dean Kaylor, who was the student who was paralyzed for life. And I got an opportunity to spend some time with him. And it just breaks your heart, to realize that this is you see what can happen, in a very powerful human way. When things get out of control, people exercise bad judgment, and then someone or some people get hurt. When you're killed, it's permanent.
David Reynolds:And if you're paralyzed, that's for life. Sure. It's real.
Tim Benson:Sure. Alright. Well, I said I'm sorry for keeping you longer than I said I would. I enjoyed it. Alright.
Tim Benson:So just, one final question then, if you'll indulge me. The the normal exit question that everyone gets. So you got the entry question, then you get the exit question. And then okay. So, yeah, that's you might have sort of talked about this already, but, I'll let you reinforce it if that that's the case.
Tim Benson:So what's the you know, what would you like the reader to take away from the book, having read it? You know, what's the one thing you'd want somebody to to have taken away from the book?
David Reynolds:To ponder the terrible consequences of a deeply polarized America, because that was certainly the case in the spring of 1970, and I am sober to say that that is essentially the case today. It can result in tragedy.
Tim Benson:Yeah. For sure. Alright. Well, before we go, do you have any, anything else you wanna plug or anything like that? Any anything you're working on coming up that's gonna be coming out or anything you wanna let let people know about?
David Reynolds:Well, I just wanna thank you for your time, and for the quality questions, and, just leave it at that.
Tim Benson:Alright. Great. Well, once again, the name of the book is Kent State, an American Tragedy. It's a really fascinating, interesting, book, frustrating, frustrating to the nth degree book on on the events of May 4, 1970 and how, again, bad decision after bad decision led to this completely unnecessary, unavoidable tragedy that took the lives of 4 young people and altered the lives of 9 more and probably even more than that. But, it's really, fascinating, like I said.
Tim Benson:I knew, like I said, just a surface level sort of knowledge of what happened and what took place in on May 4, 1970 and and getting into the the granular detail of the event and finding out the backstory and just the, the humanization of, sort of all the people, sort of involved in the same from the guardsmen to the students themselves and everything and, the parents, of these students. And it's a really, really, remarkable, great little book. Highly, highly recommended for everybody out there. Once again, the name of the book, Kent State, an American tragedy, and the author, doctor Brian Vandermark. So, doctor Vandermark, thank you so so much for, you know, taking the time to, out of your out of your life to come on the podcast and discuss the book with me, and thank you so much for, you know, taking all the time out of your life to write the sucker so that, we could all, you know, enjoy the the fruits of your labors.
David Reynolds:Thank you for having me and allowing me to share, what I've learned with others.
Tim Benson:Alright. Great. No problem. And, again, for all you out there, if you like this podcast, please consider leaving us a 5 star review and sharing with your friends. And if you have any, questions or comments or if you have any suggestions for books you'd like to see discussed on the podcast, you can always reach out to me.
Tim Benson:It's tbenson@heartland.org. That's t b e n s o n@heartland.org. And, for more information about the Heartland Institute, you can just go to regular old heartland.org. And, we do have our, Twitter slash x, account, for the podcast. You can also reach out to us there.
Tim Benson:That what is it? Twitter at illbooks@illbooks. So make sure you check that out as well. And, that's pretty much it. So thanks for listening, everybody.
Tim Benson:We'll see you guys next time. Take care. Love you, Robbie. Love you, mom. Bye bye.
Speaker 4:I'll be your mirror, reflect what you are. In case you don't know, I be the wind, the rain, and the sunset. Light on your door to show that you're home. When you think the night is in your mind, that inside you're twisted and unkind, let me stand to show that you are blind. Please put on your hands, because I see I find it hard, believe you don't know the beauty you are.
Speaker 4:But if you don't, let me be your eye and to your darkness, so you won't be afraid. When you think the night has in your mind, that inside you twisted and unkind, Let me stand to show that you are blind. Please put down your hands because I see
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