Heartland Daily Podcast

Beastie Boys: 00:00

Watch the time. It's time to get ill. Watch the time. It's time to get ill. So watch the time.

Beastie Boys: 00:06

It's time to get

Tim Benson: 00:20

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Illiteracy Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Benson, a senior policy analyst at the Heartland Institute, a national free market think tank. We're in episode a 130 something or a 140 something. I never know the episode number. Sorry about that, guys.

Tim Benson: 00:35

But, for those of you just tuning in for the first time, basically, what we do here on the podcast is, I invite an author on to discuss a book of theirs that's been newly published or recently published on, something or someone or some idea, some event, etcetera, etcetera, that we think you guys would, like to hear a conversation about. And then, hopefully, at the end of the podcast, you go ahead and, give the book a purchase and give it a read. So if you like this podcast, please consider giving Illiteracy a 5 star review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to this show, and also by sharing with your friends as that's the, best way to support programming like this. And my guest today is mister Paul h Theiss, and mister Theiss has spent the past 40 years working on Wall Street at some of the industry's most iconic firms, including JPMorgan, Lehman Brothers, and BlackRock. For most of his career, he has specialized in the energy sector, which has made him an expert in climate policy and environmental regulation, as well as its financial offshoot, the ESG and sustainable investment movement.

Tim Benson: 01:34

He has also taught as an adjunct professor of finance at New York University Stern School of Business. You may have seen his writings in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Post, The Hill, The Washington Examiner, among others. And, lastly, he is the author of The Race to 0, How ESG Investing Will Creator the Global Financial System, which was published in late February by Encounter Books and is the book we'll be discussing today. So, mister Theiss, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

Paul Tice: 02:03

Hey, Tim. It's good to be with you.

Tim Benson: 02:05

Alright. Great. Well, congratulations on the book. You, you are officially the guy now, I think, who has written the book on ESG. So it's a fantastic, fantastic book.

Tim Benson: 02:21

Heartland daily podcast listeners, I'm sure you guys are familiar with, all the work we've been doing, all the, dust we've been trying to kick up about ESG. But, for those people who might not be familiar well, first of all, let's just start. What what made you wanna write the book? What was what was the genesis of it?

Paul Tice: 02:44

So, you know, over the last couple of years, there's obviously been, you know, some pushback starting finally on ESG, and you guys have been, you know, part of that process of kind of focusing on this issue, which, you know, I think is behind the scenes because it's in the area of finance, which is somewhat less transparent, I think, to the American public. But there's never been anyone who's worked in the industry, either currently or or previously, who has offered a contrarian view of ESG and sustainability. And there's a reason for that because you're not allowed to voice criticism of ESG if you're working in the industry. Right? So it's a very totalitarian approach and that shuts down the scent.

Paul Tice: 03:27

And over the tail end of my career, really over the last 10 years, that's something that I experienced, you know, directly in terms of being able to express my views about a range of topics like climate, sustainability, and ESG, all of which are intertwined, that was in becoming increasingly problematic, being employed by the industry. So the first thing I did after I, retired from my day job 2 years ago was put pen to paper on this book to articulate that criticism and I I do think there's a silent majority on Wall Street that agrees with me, and it should be interesting to see what the feedback is.

Tim Benson: 04:04

Yeah. Gotcha. Alright. So for those listening who might not have heard of ESG before, unfamiliar with it, why don't you go ahead and explain what ESG investing is, what what the ES and G stand for? Where did it come from?

Tim Benson: 04:23

What are its roots? And is it already having an effect on on business, on society, or on government for that matter?

Paul Tice: 04:34

Yeah. So, ESG stands for environmental, social, governance factors. And, basically, these are nonfinancial factors. It's a morally subjective matrix of issues, and the argument goes that you should use these ESG factors to drive your company policy as well as your investment decision making as opposed to just using objective financial metrics that are directly linked to generating a financial return. So it's a somewhat, ridiculous argument that's being made.

Paul Tice: 05:09

If you focus on non financial factors, it will lead to financial return somewhere down the road. And it's all predicated on the theory of stakeholder capitalism Mhmm. Which says that companies should not be run for the good of their owners or their capital providers or their employees. They should be run for the good of society. For people and planet is the common, language that they use.

Paul Tice: 05:33

And that's mainly been pushed by the World Economic Forum over the last 50 years. Stakeholder capitalism is not capitalism. It may be the end stage of capitalism if we don't reverse this thing over the next several years. But it's basically the government directing the private sector and the financial markets through third party intermediaries to to do its agenda. And that obviously is the definition of fascism.

Paul Tice: 06:03

And he asked about the roots. You could trace the roots of this, you know, back 200 years, frankly. It's just the latest anti capitalist movement that we've seen, cismarxism, during 19th century. And again, there are a lot of similarities between stakeholder capitalism and what was going on in Germany and Italy back in the thirties. So it's it's the latest in a long line of criticisms, attacks on capitalism.

Paul Tice: 06:31

And what's unique about this one is it's specifically focused on fossil fuels. ESG, and this is another reason I wrote the book, I think we're losing this in in the, public criticism. It's all about climate change and defunding oil and gas. That's the main issue, and that's the main threat to the American public. And fossil fuels obviously drives capitalism, has for 200 years.

Paul Tice: 06:55

Mhmm. It's intertwined with economic growth and living standards.

Tim Benson: 06:58

Yeah. I mean, you can basically you can basically pinpoint, like, the internal combustion engine and, you know, living standards. And, like, the the minute, like, we get that, like, living standards just Yeah. You know, just dramatically curve upward.

Paul Tice: 07:11

Perfectly correlated. 1st, it was coal, then it was petroleum. Now it's natural gas. You have nuclear in there, you know, which is not a a hydrocarbon, but it's a new source of energy that also doesn't, fly with the environmentalist, but a direct link between the 2. So it's not surprising that the way to attack, capitalism in the modern day age is through shutting down fossil fuels.

Tim Benson: 07:35

Right. Right. Yeah. In you write in the book that, this sustainable investing breaks all the rules when it comes to investment schemes and you call it a scam as well. How so?

Tim Benson: 07:55

How does how why is this so different from, you know, normal, just financial management?

Paul Tice: 08:04

Well, it it's unique in the history of scams because playing out in the open, and it's so comprehensive. I mean, you know, back in the day, which was, you know, only, you know, 20 years ago, you would try to keep these frauds, you know, out of the, public view in order to keep keep them going. This now is is looking to, entrap the entire market and every market participant in this new system, and it's using moral duress to kinda sucker everyone into the trade. And over the next few years, regulation are going to kind of shut the exit door and cement this all in place, which needs to be the focus. But what what's so crazy about the argument being made, on Wall Street is that, again, these are non financial factors that somehow, will lead to a financial return down the road.

Paul Tice: 08:57

And they never tell you exactly how far it takes to get down the road. And we we obviously, over the last couple of years, have examples of companies that are focused on these type of sustainability issues and, you know, lost track of, you know, their core business, and a number of regional banks failed because they couldn't manage interest rate risk last year. Right? Mhmm. So a lot of companies are are going bankrupt over the short term as they wait for the long term payoff.

Paul Tice: 09:23

So that's one one thing that's kind of ridiculous about the argument. Also, the academic world has spent a lot of money and time trying to prove the case that if you follow an ESG agenda, it will lead to outperformance in the market. And there have been studies going all the way back to 1970 to kinda prove that. The issues with with with some of these studies are that, you know, if they use an ESG score, what is that measuring? Problem with ESG is I can put every aspect of a company's profile into either of those pillars, e, s, or g.

Paul Tice: 10:01

Right? Right. And so what are you measuring? You're measuring everything around a company, which means you're measuring nothing. So I think that's one underlying flaw to some of these academic and Wall Street reports trying to prove the case that it does lead to it.

Paul Tice: 10:14

But but the other problem is even if that were true historically, the argument that they're making is that ESG was reflected in in asset prices back in the eighties, the nineties, and the 2000, but everyone in the market didn't realize it was happening because no one talked about ESG back then. Yeah. I worked in the market. The issue never came up. So you're saying that the markets are efficient, but somehow we were subconsciously pricing all this stuff into where things traded.

Paul Tice: 10:44

Okay. Another ridiculous aspect of the whole argument. And then the the last piece is that even if that were true historically for ESG, but going forward for ESG is gonna be much different because it's all about net 0. And forcing companies to get to net 0, shutting down oil and gas to make them net 0, that clearly is a new world that we're charting, and there's really no compelling argument that that's gonna be good either for the financial markets or for the macro economy. And it's only that good for oil and gas companies that you're telling to get to net 0, which means you want them to shut down.

Tim Benson: 11:23

Yeah. Why don't you just explain every real quick now. You brought up net 0. Just explain to everybody what that means, net 0.

Paul Tice: 11:29

So, I mean, as I made by the point before, climate change, sustainable development, and ESG investing, they're all three verticals that the United Nations has been leading the charge on since the eighties. Right? That's another thing to keep in mind for the opposition. They've got a 40 year head start on us with this whole agenda, But ESG is basically the 3rd leg of the stool, and it's the most important one because it's the it's the funding mechanism for this whole agenda. Right?

Paul Tice: 11:57

So you're co opting the private markets, to do the dirty work of government, really, and to capture all of those capital flows. Net 0 is just, you know, the the the goals of the climate, vertical within the UN. And so it's basically decarbonizing industry, overall economies. It's consistent with the Paris agreement and some of those targets that have been set

Beastie Boys: 12:20

Sure.

Paul Tice: 12:20

Which, again, disproportionately impact the developed industrialized world and then lets the developing emerging markets world, including China and India, get a free pass until somewhere way down the road. So it's a 2 tiered system for climate change. It's a 2 tiered system with ESG investing too because we're only really obsessing about large cap companies in the US and Europe as opposed to, you know, much more riskier e emerging market cutters. So net zero was just, you know, decarbonizing the economy because, we think climate change is a real existential threat, which it's not. And the other, I guess, ridiculous thing about the whole argument would be that Wall Street, you know, never really forecast much past 1 year because, you know, the the accuracy of your financial model falls off sharply.

Paul Tice: 13:13

Right?

Tim Benson: 13:13

For sure. Absolutely. Right.

Paul Tice: 13:15

But they're taking box, stock, and barrel the argument that we should be making 30 year targets for the overall economy and industry based on what the climate models are telling us, which have obviously bad data being chucked through them. Right? So that's a good thing where Wall Street is kinda looking the other way and not raising an obvious objection. But, you you know, we have aggressive targets set for 2030. I mean, everyone talks about getting to net 0 by 2050.

Paul Tice: 13:43

And the whole net 0 the way they phrase that, they're assuming that carbon capture you'll be able to actually net out against, you know, absolute emissions. There's no indication that carbon capture will ever work on in scale Sure. Economically. But that's kind of the the trust me argument that they're making that it will. So go under the assumption that we're gonna get down, in terms of absolute if we wanna achieve these targets.

Paul Tice: 14:08

But by 2030, there's gonna be a lot of, you know, milestones that need to be reached on the climate and ESG agenda. And, in Europe, they wanna be the 1st net zero continent. Okay? They're gonna show us the way down, literally, with this agenda. Right.

Tim Benson: 14:24

Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the existential threat argument, which it isn't. And, I don't even think that side earnestly believes that either, or else they have a very or else they really don't know what the word existential means. Because if it really were a truly existential threat, you know, they're not acting like it. Just, I mean, existential means that, you know, the end of humanity pretty much, or human civilization.

Tim Benson: 14:54

And, if you really wanted to go about combating climate change, and if the threat were existential, you would have to be doing some serious, some serious military intervention to bring countries in line with, your policies. Because obviously China and India aren't going to, or Russia for that matter, aren't going to, you know, follow this. They don't really believe it either. So you would have to sort of bend them to your will, and the only way to do that is, you know, militarily. And and no one thinks, on that side, thinks that's on the card.

Tim Benson: 15:34

So, anyway, that's a whole different thing. But, basically, what you're saying is ESG is basically just liberal progressive politics masquerading as responsible finance. That's all this really is. I mean, deep down, when you look at the nitty gritty, that's that's all it is.

Paul Tice: 15:52

Yeah. It is. I mean, there's there's no way to spin what the ESG matrix is as a framework for investing. Because, you know, everything in each of those verticals, I would argue, is negative for a company if you're gonna invest in it. I mean, getting to net 0 is is is a not a costless exercise.

Paul Tice: 16:15

Right? You're gonna have to pay up for renewable power. You're gonna have to replace your fleet with electric vehicles if you're, FedEx. You would have to pay up for, you know, sustainable aviation fuel or biofuel. So, you know, the the green, economy is very costly.

Paul Tice: 16:33

Right? And obviously, if you're an oil and gas company, it means shutting down. Or if not, like some of the European, integrators are trying to play along thinking that they're actually gonna survive this process over the next 25 years, which they're not, but they're investing in in renewables. You know, they're moving into areas they have no expertise in because Mhmm. You're becoming more of a power producer and more like a utility.

Paul Tice: 16:59

Right? And, you know, you could be more regulated even more so than you are right now. So, and then also let's look at the other verticals. So social is diversity, equity, inclusion.

Tim Benson: 17:10

Mhmm.

Paul Tice: 17:10

There, you're basically hiring and promoting people based on, you know, not, you know, meritocratic issues, but or performance, but based on what boxes they tick. And to show you what you're interesting in, if you're if you're not hiring the best person, that could lead to, you know, a decrease in safety. Right? Yep. Certainly, you're not promoting the best candidate.

Paul Tice: 17:31

Right? So that I would say is negative. Unionization on on the s vertical is also another big agenda item. So having a more unionized workforce would fit in with the ESG ideology, I would argue that that's negative for a company that I'm investing in because the workforce is more rigid. Right?

Paul Tice: 17:50

Probably it's higher cost, and you see that in terms of a lot of the industries that are moving to, free trade, states. You know, it's more flexible workforce. You can actually make more money because it's performance driven. So I think that that also is negative. And then on the governance side, you've got the same diversity argument being made around the board.

Paul Tice: 18:10

You need to have more women on the board even though again, there's no proof that that leads to outperformance. But also the governance has a very heavy ESG component to it because the arguments made that is if you're not managing your ESG risks and focusing on it, on a day to day basis, then you're engaging in bad governance. Right? So everything is this self serving, push towards every progressive goal really over the last 100 years. And what sustainability does, which is amazing, I mean, you have to give the other side credit for this, they've taken every progressive goal for the last 100 years and turned it into an investment criteria just by saying it's sustainable.

Paul Tice: 18:53

And you can't argue with that because that's a future discussion. Right? And no one knows that. So they took all the problems of the last century where, you know, they actually executed on all these ideas to a, you know, a very bad end, And now they're just making it all a future thing. So they can never really have get into an abate of what's gonna happen in the future.

Paul Tice: 19:14

You just need to do it now. And that's kind of the strong-arm argument they're making.

Tim Benson: 19:19

Yeah. It's, it's very convenient that, basically, all the ways we need to fight climate change are, it's basically every liberal policy position wish wish list over the past 50 years is involved in what it would take to, to fight climate change. Yeah. It's very, very convenient for them. But to Wall Street itself and the financial sector, how because I I would think with most people, if you said, you know, what does your typical Wall Street guy look like?

Tim Benson: 20:03

They wouldn't think that they would necessarily have these, these values. So, how is the left capturing the financial sector like this? Why are so many, in finance ready to, you know, do its bidding, to advance climate alarmism and these, these ultra progressive social values, collectivism, etcetera. How are they doing this? And who are the who are the major players in this movement?

Tim Benson: 20:36

Who who is driving this?

Paul Tice: 20:38

So I think the global financial crisis in 2008 kinda laid the groundwork for ESG to make inroads over the over the last decade plus. You know, because after the crisis, during the the two terms of the Obama administration, you know, we were told that Wall Street wrecked Main Street. Right? So the the industry had an ethical problem, with its image coming out of that. I mean, a lot of that, again, was political spin, and we could talk about how the government, you know, had a strong role in laying the the seeds for the global financial crisis.

Paul Tice: 21:13

But there was definitely a need to to signal the virtue of the industry again coming out of it. And in case they missed that point, you know, they were sued similarly by the Obama administration for 1,000,000,000 of dollars. And then under all the new regulations passed, they had, like, something like 36,000,000 more man hours of clients that they had to deal with. So that kind of reinforced that you weren't gonna speak out against the government even if you thought you still could and that actually plays to ESG. I think that that shuts down on dissent as well because this is a government directed agenda.

Paul Tice: 21:47

But everyone went out and they joined the UN's, principles for responsible investor group over the last 10 years. Right? Because that I mean, you're joining a group that talks about responsible investment. Obviously, that signals a lot of virtue there. Sure.

Paul Tice: 22:03

And the problem is they joined it initially, and they were told that, you know, you could do ESG. You can customize it, it's an aspirational goal, and, you know, it's not, you know, prescribed. You can focus on financially important ESG. You can do it whatever you want. Right?

Paul Tice: 22:20

It's an open tent. Right? That's how they got everyone in. And now since 2015, when they passed the Paris agreement and the sustainable development goals for 2030, now everything ESG related is aligning with those two treaties. Right?

Paul Tice: 22:38

Two treaties that have not been ratified by the US Senate. So they they really have no, effect, certainly not on companies. Right? But now now they're moving the goalpost on ESG saying that you have to align with with those 2, sets of goals. Right?

Paul Tice: 22:55

And so it's getting more prescriptive. And as I mentioned, regulation is coming in the US, particularly over in Europe. And Europe is really the driving force around a lot of these agendas. You know, that they're the the member states over there push the climate agreement in Paris, sustainable development goals. And it's not surprising that European financial institutions feel the strongest about ESG.

Paul Tice: 23:16

So the force is strong over in Europe around a lot of these progressive goals. But I think the the problem we have with Wall Street is that you can't speak up. A lot of CEOs, you know, that work in the industry, I would say skew skew left. Right? Mhmm.

Paul Tice: 23:33

There are very few that spoke out even when that was allowed. Right? So I think most of them are liberals. Many believe this. Right?

Paul Tice: 23:42

BlackRock will be an example where you have a very outspoken CEO in Larry Fink who is supportive of this. Right? But for every Larry Fink, I think there are many more CEOs who are just afraid to speak out against it. And we have to remember around ESG, if we wanna try and fix dismantle this, is that it's a pressurized system. And people you know, I think are more motivated by fear even at the CEO level they don't wanna get into a you know, as a public skirmish worry about their board not having their back, you know, when they only have about 5 years to go on their career path.

Paul Tice: 24:16

Right? So there's there's a a certain amount of cowardice built into this at the senior level, and so we need to acknowledge that in coming up with ways to reverse it. But the problem for the people that work in the industry is your CEO is telling you we're gonna do this. You you really have no option to speak out. Right?

Paul Tice: 24:33

I mean, if you do, you're not gonna get paid. You'll probably get fired. And then getting, another job at an industry where everyone is under the same restriction is gonna be problematic. So and, again, I could only write this book once I retired from my day job. So that kinda speaks to the fact you really don't have a first amendment right within the industry, and, obviously, that's bad.

Paul Tice: 24:54

I mean, if we're talking about investing, you need to have a divergence of opinion for the markets to work, and ESG is, like, the only thing where everyone has to have the same opinion, particularly when it starts with climate change.

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Tim Benson: 26:29

Mhmm. Yeah. I a couple weeks ago, I did a podcast, a professor at King's College in London. He's a professor of medieval history. And he wrote this book on Christendom and basically how Christianity went from being this small sect in the Roman Empire at the time of Constantine's conversion of Christianity to basically being the religion of all Europeans, pretty much, and in the course of a 1000 years.

Tim Benson: 27:03

So he was saying, basically, when Constantine sort of came out of the closet, so to speak, as a Christian, the elites in the Roman world, the Roman aristocracy, basically, they had to go along with it, or else they would lose their position in the Roman imperial apparatus. And if you were outside of the Roman imperial apparatus, you really had no way to protect yourself or or your position or your wealth or your lands or whatever. So the amount of the Roman elites that actually probably believed in Christianity, slim to none, you know, or very few. I mean, there's probably a few true believers in there. And then the same thing sort of repeats itself when Islam, comes in and sort of conquers the Eastern Empire, that basically the members of the and overtook sort of the Eastern Roman Imperial apparatus that the elites in that region obviously, couldn't maintain their position if they were Christian still.

Tim Benson: 28:10

So they had to either not convert to Islam and lose their position and lose their ability to protect themselves and their wealth and their status and their position, or they could convert to Islam and just go along to get along. Same thing happens with, you know, Henry the 8th when he, you know, pulls away from the Catholic church after the you know, trying to get a divorce from Catherine of Aragon, etcetera, etcetera, all the way through, you know, Nazism in Nazi Germany. You know, most of the people in high positions in Nazi Germany when the Nazis come to power are not Nazis, but they, you know, join the party afterwards just to maintain their position, etcetera. Same thing with, Bolshevism and whatnot. So I think there's something of that same, phenomena happening with this ESG sustainable thing, the the woke thing, all that stuff.

Tim Benson: 29:08

I don't know how many true believers there really are with this kind of stuff, but I think people who are are the CEOs are, of these companies, the people that have a a lot to lose by going against the prevailing wins just decide, well, these are the prevailing wins. And if I wanna maintain my status, my place, you know, even if I don't believe in all this ESG bullshit, I still have to go along with it just to you know? Otherwise, it's not gonna be good for me. Do you sort of think that's sort of the same thing is happening here? And, like, that's sort of an ups

Paul Tice: 29:45

I think that's part of it. And then I I would add to your your series of examples, what what happened in COVID, you know, and what people were willing to do to keep their job, kind of suspend disbelief about, you know, a rushed vaccine and and, you know, the true nature of what they were being told around the pandemic. So, you know, and and again, you have to acknowledge, you know, it you know, at at a certain point in your career, it's tougher to lose your job. Right? I mean, if you're Absolutely.

Paul Tice: 30:12

So that you know, it it's a real issue and I I don't judge anyone, but I think that's the other side is is leveraging that. Right? So the virtue signaling really comes from the top of these firms. It's pushed down and and people really can't speak out. I I do think from all the people that I've talked to over the last several years, you know, it's an it's an everyday issue in their in their job depending on where you're working, whether it's the buy side or the sell side, whether it's a European asset management firm or a US one or a or a, or smaller private equity firm.

Paul Tice: 30:44

You know, sustainability may not be that big a drag, but it's eventually coming, you know, to a theater near you. Right? And, you know, there's no distinction made by the other side in terms of public and private markets and any firm. Everyone has to comply. So it's this all encompassing kind of totalitarian system.

Paul Tice: 31:04

But, yeah, I think the the main example of cowardice would be at the CEO level. Right? They've hired a head of sustainability in every corporate office. Right? You have to justify that hire and all the people below that person.

Paul Tice: 31:18

And so some of them may be taking a cynical approach saying, okay. I'm gonna do this until this blows over, But it's not blowing over. I mean, climate change hasn't blown over, and I think most Americans would say it's a scam. Right? The argument has never held true.

Paul Tice: 31:34

It's changed a hell of a lot since it originally started in terms of what we're supposed to be afraid of, whether it's, you know, the next ice age or global warming. Now it's climate change that's proved by every weather event. And and you you see that over the last year, you know, a local weather is really ratcheting up that messaging. Right? Because even normal weather now, you know, is the lead for the local and the and the national news, at least here in New York City.

Paul Tice: 32:00

Right? And it's it's like normal weather if if these people were older than 20 years old. So, you know, so I I I think to assume that it's gonna blow over is naive. Right? Especially now everyone knows that regulation is coming.

Paul Tice: 32:15

The SEC just finalized its proposed rules around climate disclosure. And again, that gets to the point that ESG is all about climate. And if you can force every company to disclose their their carbon emissions, then the next step is to force them to reduce it. Right? Mhmm.

Paul Tice: 32:31

So another thing to remember about ESG, all the people saying this is a new form of analysis, you know, again, it's not an organic thing that we just discovered the last few years. It's not analysis because if it were, then as soon as I have the data that I need, I can make a decision about whether I'm gonna invest in this company or not. Right? Right. So 90% of your decision is is just getting your hands on the data.

Paul Tice: 32:54

With ESG, you pressure companies to disclose all of these esoteric metrics, and then that leads to going back to the company and saying, okay. Now you would need to change your behavior this way. And if they say no or don't respond, you know, aggressively enough, then there's a built in escalation process. That's not analysis. You know, that that that's strong arming.

Paul Tice: 33:16

Right?

Tim Benson: 33:16

Yeah.

Paul Tice: 33:16

That's a try to impose a political agenda using people in the financial markets, right, as your praetorian guard. So we just need to speak out about these obvious truths about what's going on here.

Tim Benson: 33:30

Yeah. The main, you know, the main battle, the ESG battle, it's taking place in the in the credit markets, not the public equity markets. Is that right?

Paul Tice: 33:43

Yeah. I mean, that that's an argument that I make in the book and and and in my other writings. You know, there's been a lot of focus on the last 2, 3 years on the annual shareholder meetings and some of these proxy battles like you had with ExxonMobil back in 21. And and again, this is it gets to that that governance issue where the activists think if they can get, you know, advocates on more boards, they can push, these ESG policies internally, and they make the argument that it's bad governance if you don't do that self serving, step on their part. So there's been a lot of focus on on the annual meetings, a lot of protests around those.

Paul Tice: 34:23

You've seen those over in Europe where they've been disrupted by some of these, you know, theater majors, right, that are part of the the movement. But if you look at those those shareholder resolutions, most of them are withdrawn, not actually voted on over the last few years. And that's more worrisome to me than the ones that are voted on because the ones that ultimately are put to a vote get a majority support and they go nowhere. But it's all the ones that are being withdrawn voluntarily by companies and I think implemented behind the scenes that are more of the focus. But but even away from that, it's not the equity market we need to be focused on.

Paul Tice: 35:05

It's really more the credit markets because ESG is is meant to drive capital towards favored industries and simultaneously drive it away from politically incorrect ones starting with oil and gas. And you've already seen that happen right now. Right? So it's it's the bank market, It's the bond market that is gonna be the kill switch for companies that are out of favor. Right?

Paul Tice: 35:31

You know, your credit is your source of liquidity. It allows you to grow organically, grow through acquisitions. If you took turn off bank lending sufficiently enough, that'll eventually, seep into the bond market. Right? And then, you know, that is your way to defund the industry.

Paul Tice: 35:48

Right? So equity is is less of an issue. Also, the debt markets are a lot larger than the equity markets, especially when it comes to the energy sector. So that's another less than transparent financial market where stuff is going on even as we speak that the public is not really focusing on. And last point, if you look at the bank market, we've already had more than a half a dozen European banks announce that they're no longer going to be lending to oil and gas.

Paul Tice: 36:16

You know, their statements are a little mealy mouthed and they're trying to play it fast and loose, but basically, they they are, admitting that they're exiting those markets. And so that's already happening. And 3, few weeks ago, you had, the UK bank Barclays announce that they too they issued a climate change state then and they're they're basically exiting oil and gas. Right? And that includes unconventional oil and gas, which includes every frac well in the US.

Paul Tice: 36:47

Right? Right. Yep. There's no way the activists are gonna let them parse that and get away with it. And I know that they've already exited banking, oil sales companies up in Canada, which are great clients.

Paul Tice: 37:01

These are manufacturing machines, and they throw up cash flow, and they backed away from that market because of the emissions issue. So what's notable about Barclays is that it is a number 7 lender in the oil and gas lending business. Right? So it's it's significant and it's also the old Lehman Brothers Energy Banking Group, which was an industry leader, you know, back 15 years ago. So this is the first time we've got an example of a a major oil and gas lender being forced to exit the market.

Paul Tice: 37:34

And, you know, eventually, US banks will follow suit, if you could put enough pressure on them.

Tim Benson: 37:39

Yeah. More to that point, you know, say even if here in the United States, you know, at the state level, we get all these states who, pass legislation, basically forbidding ESG investing, you know, pulling state fiduciaries away from companies that do, ESG. Basically, we won't do business with you. If you do any ESG scoring, we won't do business with companies that boycott for ideological reasons, whether it's climate or whether it's a firearms manufacturer or a bullet manufacturer or what have you, and say that sort of takes over in the States, and we get a president who comes in and basically rips up all these ESG regs, but is that still not gonna be enough if Europe goes down the path that it's going with ESG. I mean, if they basically say we're gonna refuse to do business with all these American companies because of their, you know, their stupid ESG score or, you know, their, or their carbon footprint or whatever.

Tim Benson: 38:59

Is is that still going to have a massive impact on on business in the United States even if we do everything that we can to root it out here?

Paul Tice: 39:10

Yeah. I think it's it's key what happens in the US. Right? Because I think the US is the largest financial market. It's certainly the most important when it comes to the energy sector.

Paul Tice: 39:21

But there will be an impact, from Europe because, you know, a lot of the major asset management firms have a European parent. Right? Mhmm. A lot of US companies like, you know, Anheuser Busch

Beastie Boys: 39:33

Sure.

Tim Benson: 39:33

In the parent.

Paul Tice: 39:35

And as I mentioned, these ESG policies flow from the top down. So, you know, I I think there needs to be a coordinated legal pushback and that should include some of these European regulations because, you know, we're we're living in a global market when it comes to finance. So a lot of these regulations will spill in indirectly and and some firms may decide just for the, you know, the ease of of living, they're gonna default to the European standard, which obviously is the most aggressive with regard to some of these sustainable goals. And that always happens with regulation. You know, it's the least common denominator problem that you have.

Paul Tice: 40:14

And with ESG, everyone's gonna be pushed to be the most conservative. And so once someone sets out that low bar, everyone's gonna gravitate towards it. So we can't forget what's going on in Europe, and those things I think will really kick in starting from 2025 going forward. But I think the US is is pivotal in terms of reversing all of this because if we can keep the US as, like, an ESG free trading zone Mhmm.

Beastie Boys: 40:38

And I

Paul Tice: 40:39

think everything else collapses because, you know, everyone has to buy into this prisoner's dilemma. Right?

Tim Benson: 40:45

Yeah.

Paul Tice: 40:46

And suspend disbelief. Otherwise, the system doesn't work because we know it's negative for companies and your economy and your market. So, you know, if the US were to opt out and let Europe find its own level lower, then that would expose the whole, you know, charade of our mistake. So I think the US is key. You know, winning the White House this year obviously is a is a key component to that.

Paul Tice: 41:09

But I think the red states obviously have started to take the lead to push back on ESG, and they have a strong role going forward no matter who wins, or if God forbid, we have another Biden administration, 4 more years. Right? Mhmm.

Beastie Boys: 41:22

So

Paul Tice: 41:22

the Red States, you know, with West Virginia versus EPA, that is the same exact argument that they need to use for all of these financial regulations now because clearly they're overstepping the balance of the SEC and the FDIC and the Fed, and they're getting into setting economic and energy policy. And that's not their purview. Right. Kick that back to the congress, and then nothing will happen because obviously congress is fairly dysfunctional. Right?

Tim Benson: 41:48

Yeah.

Paul Tice: 41:48

But that should be the goal. Attack all these financial regulations. But don't just stop with ESG. We need to work our way backward into all of these climate regulations that are providing the support for ESG. And so as I mentioned, the Paris agreement, you know, needs to be submitted to the senate.

Paul Tice: 42:06

It won't pass because it needs a super majority and that should kill it with regard to all of the states and localities and companies that are, you know, thinking that they need to align with it. The same for the sustainable development goals. Right? Again, a treaty should have been submitted to the senate and then go after the endangerment finding from the Obama, you know, first term. So it's clearly political decision.

Paul Tice: 42:29

C o 2 was never included as a regulated pollutant when we passed the Clean Air Act in 1970 and when we revised it twice over 25 years. Right? So that and it's obviously a naturally occurring greenhouse gas. Sure. So you're regulating a naturally occurring greenhouse gas.

Paul Tice: 42:47

Methane's the same, nitrous oxide. By that logic, you should regulate water vapor. Right? Mhmm. So clearly, you know, I think it that's easy pickings in terms of going after that.

Paul Tice: 42:58

And then maybe you have to work your way back to the the the really bad, supreme court ruling in 07, Massachusetts versus EPA, which actually Right. Kicked you to the EPA. Right? So we we need to be aggressive in going after all these climate regulations because they provide, you know, the the momentum for ESG. And and Trump didn't do that during his first turn.

Paul Tice: 43:20

He stopped the forward momentum, but he needed to keep pushing his way back. Right? It's like the last days of World War 2. Keep pushing the line to the east, before the music stops. We need to do that because, again, otherwise, it's 4 more years until it just restarts again.

Paul Tice: 43:38

And no one's ever voted on this climate agenda. Right? We never had an election in this country. It's all been implemented behind the scenes by Democrats. So it's a political issue.

Paul Tice: 43:48

We should acknowledge that upfront, and we should fight it, you know, more smartly. Right? Using the same tactics that the left has used.

Tim Benson: 43:55

Yep. You're speaking my language, man. I'm with you. But, Morris calls, sort of bringing in a little bit more from the 30,000 foot level. I mean, we talked about how or briefly talked about how it's affecting the energy sector and fossil fuels specifically.

Tim Benson: 44:14

But what about agriculture, farmers, ranchers? A lot of people don't seem to know. We had we had conversations last year with a a group or we tried having reps with the farm bureaus and trade organizations in in a lot of these redder states, and they have not been very vocally active about, or actively vocal, I should say, excuse me, about the dangers of ESG to their to their industries, to agriculture in general, to, you know, cattlemen and and ranchers and and farmers. What effect is ESG going to have on agriculture and or is it already having 1 at the moment?

Paul Tice: 45:16

Well, I think if you look to Europe, that's kind of the the ghost of Christmas yet to come. You know, we're we're seeing their extreme policies. And, again, it gets back to the point that there's not a lot of logical consistency between the argument being made there by the other side. Right? Mhmm.

Paul Tice: 45:31

If this really is an existential, you know, threat to the planet, climate change, then why isn't every country on board doing their their level best? Right? Why isn't government driving this process? Why are we working through the back door of of forcing companies to do it? Why are we building nuclear?

Paul Tice: 45:48

Right? Why do we take natural gas? I mean, it's a smaller carbon footprint. So by definition, it will allow us to displace coal as we shut down normally coal, not not forced to shut down. But there's no rhyme or reason in terms of the arguments being made by the other side.

Paul Tice: 46:05

And that's because it's all about political control. And you and you see that at that extreme with with what they're now doing around agriculture over in Europe. You know, they are trying to shut down farms. The Netherlands feeds basically the European continent and they want to shut down 3,000 farms because they're concerned about nitrous oxide emissions. Right?

Paul Tice: 46:25

And and the Netherlands has a de minimis amount of the total amount of nitrous oxide that are emitted on this planet. So it won't matter if they they zero it out tomorrow.

Tim Benson: 46:35

Right.

Paul Tice: 46:35

But, you know, the same people who have been saying, we're so concerned about the population growth, at the same time are are creating the, you know, the groundwork for food scarcity. Right? On top of rising energy prices, which will make food more expensive. Now, you know, Europe is gonna go through something they haven't seen for, you know, 2 centuries. Right?

Paul Tice: 46:59

You know, starvation and people being exposed to the elements because their electricity grids don't work reliably anymore. So I I think what's going on with the agriculture sector in Europe should be a cautionary tale for the US and, you know, we'll see exactly how it does play out. But you already see the movement in this country to claw back land, and basically keep it, fallow. Right? Generate carbon credits by doing nothing.

Paul Tice: 47:26

You have this crazy argument that you you can generate revenue by noneconomic activity. Yeah. We would

Tim Benson: 47:32

pay you not to farm, basically.

Paul Tice: 47:34

Yeah. Basically, just, like, removing it. I would say, also, another thing to focus on, is, you know, ethanol, which, you know, frankly, it's taken energy inflation over the last 20 years, injected it into our food chain. Right? And a lot of the corn that we're producing in this country goes to make ethanol as opposed to feeding people.

Paul Tice: 47:56

Right? And and that was despite the fact that ethanol has a fairly big carbon footprint

Beastie Boys: 48:02

when

Paul Tice: 48:02

you look at all the energy required to make it. And now we're building c 02 pipelines that will take all the carbon dioxide generated by all these ethanol plants in the Midwest and then take it back and inject it into a depleted oil well in North Dakota. That's how crazy the logic is around what we're doing here because it's politicians that are driving this. There's no science behind it, and there's certainly no market demand. But the amount of money that's being waste on this but, you know, I I think agriculture is something to watch because the same people who keep, you know, obsessing about the fact we're not gonna be able to feed the population are also the same ones who are more concerned about saving the planet.

Paul Tice: 48:42

And everything around their agenda

Tim Benson: 48:44

Put in tight put in our gas tanks instead of on people's plates.

Paul Tice: 48:48

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, so it it we need to acknowledge that the people on the other side have an anti human agenda. And and I would say we no longer, I think, can can kind of assume that the other side is just big hearted, but, you know, they're not very bright, you know, small brains, big hearts. They keep doing stuff that doesn't work out, but we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Paul Tice: 49:11

I think the other side knows exactly what they're doing because if you can control, well, food and energy, you control the population. And a lot of this is about political control. And if you look at at some of the, trial balloons that are thrown up by the World Economic Forum, which is a sister traveler to the United Nations around this whole progress to 2030, you can see some of the sinister, you know, proposals that they have that are already being implemented. Right? And we have 15 minute cities sprouting up in this country, particularly over in Europe, And I think people need to focus on

Tim Benson: 49:47

that. Yeah. Excuse me. So you argue in the book that, basically, if left unchecked, that ESG is gonna completely, take over Wall Street by 2030. And I know for most people, 2030 still sounds like it's very far off in the future.

Tim Benson: 50:11

But it's only, you know, less than 6 years away at that point. So so how are you talked about it a bit, but, how should we push back on ESG and this politicization of finance? And, do you really think it's it's because we've seen a lot of pushback so far at the state level and red states, not as much as I would like. So far. There's there haven't been a swift with this as I would have hoped as someone who's been working on this now at the state level for a couple of years.

Tim Benson: 51:00

But, do you still think that that 2030, that's really that like, once we get to 2030, if this if left unchecked, it's over. It's just completely swallowed up everything, and there's nothing we can really do.

Paul Tice: 51:14

Well, I I think we need to take the other side of the word that 2030 is a real milestone year. You know, we we can dismiss what's happened in the past in terms of some of their forecast about the world ending in 2,021,013 and 18. You know? Again Yeah. We shouldn't take what they're doing as a joke because, you know, they they haven't stopped.

Paul Tice: 51:34

And there's too much political capital and personal capital invested in this by a lot of people, so they're not gonna back away from it. And and honestly, trying to use facts and reason with them also is probably pointless. I I think we need to educate the public, but the people driving to somebody on the side of the aisle are are you know, they're driven by something other than logic. Right? Otherwise, we would have more thoughtful discussions about some of the unintended consequences we've seen over the last several years and why this may not turn out well.

Paul Tice: 52:10

So I I think we need to keep that in mind in terms of the pushback by the red states. You mentioned a lot of them pulling back business either from their pensions or state business From some of the offending firms you know, I think that's good and an American consumer should do the same with their personal money But I don't think that, at the end of the day, is going to tip the balance because if you just look at demographics and the size of red state pension funds, you know, it's a factor of 2, 1, that blue states, are much larger. Right? So it's gonna be a choice

Tim Benson: 52:48

CalPERS and Illinois and New York, New Jersey, etcetera.

Paul Tice: 52:52

And CalPERS and New York State Common, they've all been solely exiting oil and gas. Right? And they're actually a lot of them are are to the left of Larry Fink in terms of of telling him to to push more. So that's not gonna be enough. I mean, clearly, setting up, you know, new fund managers like Strive to manage that red state money, that's not a bad strategy, frankly.

Paul Tice: 53:13

I mean, there's enough critical mass that you can build. I don't think it's really going to make a difference in the ESG battle because, again, you're not gonna be able to take enough money away from BlackRock or another firm to really move the needle. Right? And even if you were, let's assume you could actually get Larry Fink to capitulate. Again, if if everybody else in the industry is afraid, to take a stand against it, then that's not gonna change anything.

Paul Tice: 53:40

Right? So you really need to go after these regulations. And I do think that's a strong argument, again, using the precedent of, West Virginia versus EPA. And then we'll see at the end of this term whether we get a a favorable enough worded, ruling around, Chevron deference to regulatory agencies to see if that gives us more momentum. But but I do think the red states need to use a very, rather than focusing on individual firms again, focus on the regulations behind them to see if we can remove the pressure on the industry so that even CEOs and everyone who works at their firm can speak freely about this.

Paul Tice: 54:16

Because once more people talk about this and state obvious truths, again, it it kinda crumbles, you know, under the the the daylight of logic. Right? And just have a radical discussion. So but 2030, I think we need to acknowledge is a real date, what they want to achieve. And if you look at climate, Europe and the US wanna cut their emissions by 50, 55% by 2030 versus a a 1990 starting bid, that's gonna lead to a lot less economic growth.

Paul Tice: 54:48

Right? Higher poverty, you know, higher mortality rates. Right? Absolutely. That's something to be aware about.

Paul Tice: 54:54

This net 0 2050, we have real achievement goals that that Paris has set for 2030. Also, they wanna achieve all the sustainable development goals by 2030. They're not going to, but let's remember that 12 out of those 17 goals have a climate component to it. And they also have a stand alone number 13 climate goal. So it's all about climate change.

Paul Tice: 55:18

And then again, the net zero, if you look at ESG, the one thing that everyone's gravitating towards is all of these net zero clubs. Right? So the way to show that you are with the program is by decarbonizing your portfolio. Right? Mhmm.

Paul Tice: 55:33

Banks have already started. And if these regulations about emissions disclosures stick and are not successfully challenged, then you're gonna get more investors, asset management firms that are gonna make the decision that they need to throw oil and gas over the side. Right? And I I think the other thing to keep in mind between now and 2030, not that I'd like to make long term forecast, but I think at some point, probably in 2025, there's gonna be a push again to declare a global climate emergency. And then using the pandemic as kind of a test run, we'll see what kind of emergency powers that that Europe and the US and the developed economies have to push through this agenda, which is another reason why 2024 is a key election in this country, and there are a lot of elections around the world.

Paul Tice: 56:21

So, if you remember John Kerry made that comment before he left, as climate saw that one politician can't reverse this now, you know, 2024 is an important political hurdle. Because once we get past here, then it's 4 years plus for most of these, you know, sympathetic administrations. Right. And it's gonna be an end run to 2030.

Tim Benson: 56:43

Right. Gotcha. Yeah. So just sort of wrapping up, I guess, your 2030 exit plan, you go we've talked about it, a little bit that this really has to come at the to really defeat this, we really have to undo the regs at the federal level. I mean, it's helpful that the states are gonna do what they're gonna do on ESG in their states.

Tim Benson: 57:08

And you talked a little bit, about what the consumers can do, the regular people can do that, you know, just with their pocketbook, and just try to not support, these companies that are supporting ESG. Is there anything else, the listener out there that you know, thinking, you know, what can I do to to to fight this stuff? Is there anything else the regular American can do to help combat ESG?

Paul Tice: 57:38

Sure. Let let me just add a a a one more point about the previous question about it getting, you know, much more serious. Sure. You know, if there's a second Biden term. He's already tabled a lot of the tougher issues for a second term.

Paul Tice: 57:52

So he he paused the LNG export approvals by the DOE. Many people may not have focused on this, but we're still waiting on a, an Army Corps of Engineers approval and environmental impact statement for the Dakota Access Pipeline Mhmm. Which, if you remember, was the so called controversial oil pipeline that was stalled by Obama at the tail end of his term and then, cleared by the Biden by the, Trump administration. But that has been badgered by environmentalists and and the native population there. And so the Biden DOJ and Army Corps had been sitting on a fairly straightforward environmental call because the pipeline goes under the Missouri River.

Paul Tice: 58:36

It cannot pollute that water base. So there is no issue. Right? They're sitting on it and if they come out in a in the beginning of the next term with a decision to shut in that existing pipeline, that's gonna take their attack on energy to a whole new level because now you're shutting in existing infrastructure that has no environmental issue attached to it. Right?

Paul Tice: 58:58

And so we're gonna have to see how creative they get going after the oil and gas industry when they don't have to worry about another election. So that's something to keep in mind. And also at the state level, Colorado is trying to shut in their oil and gas business. You know, you've had these setback issues. Pennsylvania is now kinda taking their lead.

Paul Tice: 59:17

So again, after we get through the end of this year, the election cycle, let's see at the state level who gets more aggressive, around going after the industry. Because you know they're all predisposed to attack. It's just a tactical issue about when and timing. Right? So but what can people do?

Paul Tice: 59:34

Again, your business, don't patronize the company that you're not happy with it, you know, whether it's Disney, Bud Light, what have you. The same for your investment adviser, take your money elsewhere. I think the main thing again, if if climate change is the main threat from ESG, it would be helpful. I think if people educated themselves a little more just on the the the basic argument of climate change. I think intuitively, Americans know it's a scam.

Paul Tice: 01:00:00

I wrote chapter 2 to kinda just lay out all the fatal flaws in it because the other side doesn't make it easy for you to kinda just, you know, kinda approach the data in that but make it purposely confusing. Right? The UN as well as all of the agencies here in the US. So it kinda lays out all the late, fatal flaws, including the whole measurement of an average global temperature, which is a meaningless number and it's problematic, and you guys have done work on this about, the, urban heat island effect, which is distorted of the land readings, and we're also measuring land and water temperature differently. And, again, we don't have a record that goes past 79 because we didn't have satellites.

Paul Tice: 01:00:40

So exactly and then also, we finally get some more scientists now who are speaking out a little more aggressively. They've also been, I think, subject to cancel culture. And and people are now actually saying out loud, you know, it looks like temperature drives c o 2 as opposed to the reverse. And if that's true, none of this is real, you know, as the woman on the airplane said last year. Right?

Paul Tice: 01:01:04

No? I think we need to start challenging this, not just laughing it off. And so people arm themselves so that they won't be, you know, cowardice to not saying something in public because they don't wanna embarrass themselves or be called a climate denier. And I've been called a climate denier at least for 10 years now. I mean, I laugh because it shows the other side really doesn't have an argument.

Paul Tice: 01:01:25

Mhmm. But take that information and then give an earful to your lawmaker, on the Republican side because they need to get more of a backbone. And far too many Republicans, I think, are not willing to have that difficult conversation in public because they don't wanna seem like, you know, they're unsophisticated. So, you know, they basically demur and, they issue all these anodyne statements about wanting clean air and and clean water, which has nothing to do with the argument that carbon is a pollutant, which it's not. So I think pressure your lawmakers, because they really need to be more aggressive around this.

Paul Tice: 01:02:04

And at least at the state level, if you've got an oil and gas business within your state, it aligns your interest in protecting your your local economy. You don't have that at the federal level, but hopefully, there's strength in numbers. So if more people talk out about it, we get republicans at the state level, hopefully it spills over to the federal level. And then the last piece is we need the energy sector to start defending itself. And this is another argument I make in the book.

Paul Tice: 01:02:29

They clearly are the number one target here. They don't have net zero ends for them. But for the last 20 years, all of these companies have been trying to bargain with the other side thinking they'll be the last man or woman standing in this process. And it's like, no. You'll just be the last one to go when they come for you.

Paul Tice: 01:02:47

And so I think they need to speak out more aggressively with the platform that they have. And and I agree with what the left has always said about oil and gas companies, that they had inside knowledge about climate change science, but they refused to to let it out. And now you have all these fraud cases being brought against them. Well, I would argue that, yeah, they know that climate science really has no firm grounding, and it it's suspect, and they need to be coming out and saying that. But, you know, this week, they're having the energy conference in Houston for, CERAWeek, and not one of them is going to speak out about that that side of the argument because they're afraid.

Paul Tice: 01:03:24

And that just shows you how good CSG is. If you can tell an energy CEO not to say anything, you can do that to anybody.

Tim Benson: 01:03:32

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I I tell people all the time, I live on a not trying to make myself look cool or anything, but I I do live on an island in South Florida. And, you know, there's construction all up along down the beach, ocean side, you know, people building new houses, people moving in.

Tim Benson: 01:03:52

You know? So I will start to worry about climate change being real when I start seeing all my multimillionaire neighbors, you know, a giant exodus from from my neighborhood, and, but that doesn't seem to be the case. So, so, for all the people who are most invested in the climate change stuff, once they start actually putting their money where their mouths is, mouths are, on this, and maybe I'll I'll start to I'll start to believe it. But like I said, based on all the, you know, activity, you know, construction activity going on here, doesn't seem to be the case. No one's really that concerned about, you know, sea level rise or anything like that with the amount of, you know, new houses I see going up.

Tim Benson: 01:04:39

But, anyway, alright. So just final exit question 1, know, everybody gets on the podcast. And you may have, touched on it. You may have already or pretty much answered it with your last, answer. But, you know, basically, what what would you like the audience to get out of this book, or what's the one thing you want, a reader, to take away from it having read it?

Paul Tice: 01:05:06

Well, you know, I when I wrote it, I I tried to keep it free of jargon. So, hopefully, I succeeded in that front, and I didn't wanna have charts in that because it wasn't that kind of book. So, you know, it was designed so that anyone could read it, not just people who work in the industry. Mhmm. And, you know, I I think the takeaway is just, you know, how long this progressive agenda has been building and why, you know, this is kind of an inflection point in terms of capturing the financial markets, which are key to capitalism.

Paul Tice: 01:05:37

So this this time, it's it's big in terms of another institution within society kind of falling to to the progressive left. And you've seen that obviously with schools and the media and organized religion and the arts over the last 3, 4 decades. So this is the last pillar to fall, I think. And again, if you can control the markets, you can control fossil fuels, you can control every American. And I think that resonates with Americans because they know how much energy and food prices is have gone up the last couple of years.

Paul Tice: 01:06:09

You know, if this agenda succeeds over the next several years, you know, we're gonna see inflation that makes the last 2 years look like child's play. Right? And so I think need people need to be aware about what's going in the financial markets whether you're invested or not. I think they can grasp the fact that if you can starve a company or an industry for capital, you will constrain growth there and that's obviously gonna ripple through to the rest of the economy. So, you know, I think that will resonate with most Americans.

Paul Tice: 01:06:38

You know, on the other side, the people that are benefiting from this, no. But I think we just need to ignore them and then, again, to spend all the regulations that are facilitating their agenda.

Tim Benson: 01:06:50

Alright. Great. Alright. Well, before we go, are there, anything else you wanna plug? Any information you wanna get out there?

Tim Benson: 01:06:57

Any appearances or social media, anything like that, website, anything?

Paul Tice: 01:07:03

Still building my website, but you can reach me on, LinkedIn and and, and Twitter. I post some of the commentary I do there. And, you know, the book's available, as you mentioned, on encounter, the website. So, and then some more news coming over the next few weeks in terms of what I'll be doing around, energy going forward, in terms of mark on top of marketing the book.

Tim Benson: 01:07:27

Alright. Great. Well, again, the book is The Race to 0, How ESG Investing Will Create the Global Financial System. Great, great book. Like I said, you were now officially the guy, I think, who has written the book on ESG.

Tim Benson: 01:07:44

I saw, Mark Mills, who is a previous guest of this podcast, from AE or Manhattan Institute. Excuse me. He called the book a body blow to the predations of the ESG industrial complex, and, I have to agree. It's a fantastic, fantastic it was it's basically the book I've been waiting for somebody to write on ESG. It really, puts it all together, really explains it well for, like I said, someone I mean, you know, if you haven't really approached this question before, if you're out there and you're, you know, like I said, not really financially savvy or or whatnot, it that's fine.

Tim Benson: 01:08:31

Like you said, there's there's not a lot of jargon. There's nothing in here that's not intelligible to the, you know, to the lay reader. So I highly, highly, highly recommend the book, for everybody out there. Again, the book, The Race to 0, How ESG Investing Will Creator the Global Financial System, and the author, mister Paul Teich. So, mister Teich, thank you so, so much for coming on the podcast and, you know, having this chat with us about ESG.

Tim Benson: 01:08:58

And, you know, thank you for taking the time to, write the book and, let us enjoy the fruits of your fruits of your labors. We, we appreciate it.

Paul Tice: 01:09:08

Thanks, Ted. Enjoyed our conversation.

Tim Benson: 01:09:11

Alright. Thank you. And, again, if you like this podcast, please consider leaving us a 5 star review and sharing with your friends. And if you have any, books you'd like to discuss with us on this podcast, so, you know, any, suggestions or if you have any questions or comments, anything like that, you can always reach out to me attbenson@heartland.org. That's tbenson@heartland.org.

Tim Benson: 01:09:31

And for more information about the Heartland Institute, you can just go to heartland.org. We got a lot of, a lot of good ESG stuff on the website. A lot of my colleagues, Jack McFerran, Justin Haskins, Donnie Kendall, have been doing with ESG. So make sure you check that out. And then, also, we do have our own Twitter slash x, account.

Tim Benson: 01:09:55

I'm just gonna call it Twitter forever. I don't think anyone's ever gonna call it x. But anyway, so our Twitter handle is at illbooks, at illbooks. So check it out if you have any questions, comments, anything like that.

Beastie Boys: 01:10:09

And, yeah,

Tim Benson: 01:10:09

that's pretty much it. So thanks for listening, everybody. We'll see you guys next time. Take care. Love you, Robbie.

Tim Benson: 01:10:14

Love you, man. Bye bye.

Speaker 5: 01:10:22

Bye. Father won't know. Let's think that I got no respect, but ever felt means last stand 0. Means less than 0. A pistol while still smoking.

Speaker 5: 01:11:52

A man lay on the floor, Mr. Oswald said it. Had an understanding what the lorry said. I heard about a couple of them

Speaker 6: 01:12:01

in the USA. He said they traded them, they made it far.

Speaker 5: 01:12:30

Is less than 0.